Rick rule Rick rule is a favorite of the real Vision Community if you’d like to meet Rick and get a master class from the master himself you’ll want to head to the Rick rule Symposium on natural resource investing in Florida July 23-27 you’ll get access to Industry insiders Elite bullion dealers gold council Members and uranium Pros just head over to realvision.com Rick for tickets that’s realvision.com Rick thank you What’s going on guys it’s Ash Bennington welcome to the crypto Gathering our special week-long campaign on real Vision where we ask this big question is it game on in crypto are we about to enter the next Bull Run and if so how do you position for it yesterday we Discussed the state of the nft market with our friend Sergio Silva who spoke with OSF and Mando they discussed the changes in liquidity and the impact of that Mando explained why they swapped their vast nft portfolio for eth which is rocketing this morning I should say the trio has also talked about utility Tokens web3 and mainstream adoption all right on to Today’s Show where we look at the question of is it game on through the lens of hedge fund managers joining me today are Chris Sullivan co-founder and co-portfolio manager at Hyperion Decimus Jeff Dorman Chief investment officer at ARCA and Richard Galvin Co-founder and CEO at digital asset Capital Management welcome to the show guys thank you thanks for having me Ash well we got one hell of a day to do this lots of breaking news this morning that I just want to talk about at the top of the show here former CEO of crypto Lender Celsius network has been arrested the U.S attorney for the southern district of New York has just held a press conference on it I believe that preface conference is ongoing right now machinski has been charged with fraud and attempting to manipulate crypto currencies the U.S Securities and Exchange Commission Commodities Futures Trading commission and Federal Trade Commission that’s SEC FTC and FTC have each filed separate civil lawsuits against michinsky and Celsius the FTC also announced a 4.7 billion dollar settlement with Celsius the money will not be paid until creditors and investors have been repaid in the bankruptcy proceeding the New York Attorney general filed charges against machinski for defrauding investors in January of this year I should say not filed charges filed a civil suit I believe it’s important to note that Alex machinski and Celsius have been a real Vision sponsor in the past of course Mr machinski is innocent until proven Guilty we should also say we’ve got a big ruling in Ripple lawsuit uh summary judgment here we’re just parsing through this literally this is broken here uh in the last few minutes before the show went live but it appears as that the summary judgment indicates that xrp is Not a security we’re going to unpack all of that in just a minute guys obviously tremendous amount of news flow today hell of a day to be doing this panel let’s just go around the horn I know everyone on this show has been familiar to a real Vision audience but for people Who maybe knew who may be joining us for the first time uh let’s just go around and introduce ourselves tell a little bit about your background and what you do now we’ll start with You Chris Sullivan sure be happy to um co-pm and co-founder of hyperandesmus we run a Quant driven Multi-strat semiogen displacement investors for almost a decade in the space um and realistically you know my role is just to try and get investors to understand like what what is a good combination of Theses strategies narratives help them defiat themselves D Fiat I like that term uh Jeff over to you Yeah sure thanks Ash hello everyone uh Jeff Dorman Chief investment officer co-founder at ARCA uh we’re a full service asset management firm dedicated to digital assets started in 2018 uh have multiple funds we have liquid fundamentally research driven hedge funds we have an NFC specific fund we Have an early stage Venture fund pretty much the whole team comes from traditional asset management and and you know our real Niche is applying you know tried and true investment fundamental methodologies and risk management to this new you know Rising asset class well said Richard Galvin oh thanks Ash yeah I’m the co-founder And CEO of dicm we’re uh Sydney based but we won Global institutional and family office money uh through crypto we focus on T core strategies we run an early stage Venture fund which we launched in in mid 2018 and a long only fund fundamentally research driven fund That we launched in early 2018.uh prior to starting the firm I was a banker for 20 years focused on the tech sector at uh goulburn and JP Morgan yeah I mean everybody on this conversation has extensive background not just in cryptocurrency but in traditional Finance which makes you guys Kind of the ideal panel to discuss everything that’s happening here this morning and this afternoon let’s start with Alex machinski guys what are your thoughts on this good old old news not really worth more than 30 seconds of the show probably agree with you well but arrested today Simultaneous filings from cftc SEC and FTC this is pretty big news uh obviously the news has been baked in in terms of what’s happened with Celsius post collapse but criminal prosecution obviously innocent until proven guilty we should say but still kind of a big deal what are your thoughts about the Impact it’s going to have on the space it is Major news flow Jeff but I think it’s big news for Alex machinski and his family I don’t think it affects creditors at all in terms of the asset recovery it certainly doesn’t affect the markets in any uh sense yeah um you know That there you would never be able to find a single Trader or investment manager or fund that is making any bets you know for or against the outcome of Alex machinski so um you know big news in the sense that if you you know if you had your uh uh Criminal or expected criminal uh dart board you know another one that just got targeted but I just don’t think it has a um a real meaningful impact on the space I mean we all know we’re moving away from the 2017 to 2021 uh uh incumbents to some of Which didn’t necessarily follow the law and sort of moving ahead towards the new wave of digital assets which is going to include certain incumbents who did things right plus this new wave of you know Trad fine institutional uh asset managers and service providers that are getting into the space Yeah I agree with Jeff completely Ash and Matt I’ve just reintroduced it just like this news has no bearing on what we collectively do in our funds and and the price of the assets itself you can give a corollary to this week Bank of America got fined 250 million dollars for Basically doing the same thing machinski was doing allegedly um and the stock went up so Richard Galvin thoughts yeah I I think the Market’s largely kind of moved on from uh yeah well aware of everything that went on in 2022 and just kind of since this is cleaning up uh Cleaning up a lot of mess that’s kind of pretty much baked into the market over that sort of period yeah I think those are all important points I think definitely baked in uh and as you point out you have probably no impact in terms of the process that’s Going on for Recovery uh for the creditors uh but I will say this just to play devil’s advocate here uh there are a lot of folks in this world uh in the business community in finance who do not have the sophistication that the folks on this call do uh they read the Wall Street Journal they’re going to see this story today and it’s going to be in their View at least yet another black mark for crypto in terms of the the perception uh that people outside the space have how do you think about that do you think that’s a factor or not important Yeah I think that’s important um in the sense that it it was important prior to FTX I think the news that came in 2022 prior to FTX all was incrementally important I think FTX was so big and so well known and Sam begman freed had resonated so far beyond Just you know the crypto circles you’re really not going to have a headline that’s bigger than that um you know post November 2022 when uh FCX went down and Sam begman varied was indicted um pretty much every conversation since then up until a few weeks ago was Will Crypto survive how are you going to run an asset management firm or a business in an industry that’s being targeted by the SEC and the doj and everyone else but post the BlackRock and Citadel news of June every conversation has already shifted to not from will crypto survive But who’s actually going to end up making all the money here is it going to be the incumbent or is it going to be BlackRock and Citadel or anyone else so I I think right you know maybe the timing of the announcement just by itself you know if this announcement had Come six or nine months ago probably would have carried more weight uh with regard to what you’re saying I I think at this point though you’re not going to get a bigger fish than SPF and FTX and it’s just not going to have a meaningful impact on the sentiment uh which in my Opinion is already started to change pretty meaningful over the last three to four weeks yeah very interesting very newest guys any further thoughts on Mr machinsky no I agree I I agree with Jeff Hull hardly I think the you know the BlackRock news kind of brought us back From I guess consensus view that was kind of teetering on the abuse around U.S regulation so yeah I think this is kind of like the this is like a a blowback to when a time that we’ve kind of moved it along from given that I guess what I’d say is a much more Positive sort of trajectories we seem to be adding on posts these uh FDA ETF filings it is also nice to see the rule of law right albeit didn’t protect any investors because The Regulators are have a history of never doing that properly it is nice to see the ball come through Well you know I guess you could say that uh that this is something that’s you know potentially forward-looking if you want to protect investors you make a a case uh that bad actors uh will in fact uh have consequences for their actions okay on to the next big story here of The day and it really is an enormous one I haven’t had a chance to read the Ripple ruling yet but I’m seeing the tweets uh flowing obviously summary judgment here in the Ripple case granted this morning it appears that the interpretation is again I want to be Very careful about how I say this uh that uh the interpretation at least broadly speaking is that the ruling implies that Ripple is not a security what do you guys think about this without reading it word for word um we’ve got to go with the headline I I Personally don’t think it’s a security um I’m not representing my firm’s position but going through the code base um I I think maybe actions based on the three-prong Howie tests should could potentially be viewed as such but as far as the underlying asset um I concur with the statement that’s not a security Well let’s make the question a little bit more General here let’s bring the conversation just a little bit broader to explain to people what the issue here is at stake and why this idea of whether or not it Ripple is in fact is security I should say xrp is or is not a security is an important question guys jump in I don’t think well this case is so important now she said um yeah this is the case that’s kind of ahead of the pack right so there’s been a lot of accusations made particularly you know Recently as well around a whole bunch of different assets and whether they’re Securities or not and this is really sort of the key test case that’s been you know running on for for an extended period of time now so it’s kind of the first first kind of Glimpse I get of you know Where we get more of a judgment between both sides and a judge kind of giving giving a view on whether it’s something whether something in the crypto space there was there was that was posited by Regulators to be security whether it is or not um and so You know the first initial read on that you know first of probably many cases I guess we’re going to have to watch play out over the next few years I mean it’s just another example of the sort of regulatory pendulum we’ve all kind of lived through over the last kind Of five or six years right and all these legal processes you make a whole bunch of claims and then they get tested in court so there’s a momentum swing between the accusers and then the Defenders and we’ve obviously also gone through just a new wave of you know Accusations being made over the last few months and hopefully we get to sort of see the other side of that play out over the next year or so there’s a much bigger Point here which is there’s nothing illegal about being a security I think there’s all this back And forth especially on crypto Twitter of whether something’s a security or not is if it is as if all of a sudden it’s illegal to be a security there is nothing illegal about something being a security as long as Securities laws are followed right so it doesn’t that’s the core of the allegations But it’s really it’s really important to make sure people understand that because you read through people who maybe aren’t as sophisticated as investors and they’re so worried about something being in security thinking that all of a sudden that means it has no investment thesis and it’s illegal you can’t own it So just to be very clear here every investment manager every individual can buy and sell and trade Securities or non-securities right you can trade non-securities like baseball cards and gold you can trade Securities like stocks and bonds it makes absolutely no difference to the end to the end investor right what it matters To is only two people right which is the issuer of a token if you are issuing a token that is deemed a security then you have to go through a much uh longer process in terms of SEC registration uh and and and pay a lot of fees in order To register your token as a security and do the ongoing reporting that comes with it you know whether that be 8ks 10qs 10ks or some other types of filings the other group of individuals who care of something of security is the those who uh traffic in the Securities right the exchanges the Brokers Um if you are you need special licenses in order to trade Securities and right now in the token infrastructure World there really isn’t anything properly set up to trade security tokens there’s a few right there’s a few that have been built but they have no traction they Have no customers yet they have no tokens on there that’s what matters right the reality is for the end everybody else the end token user the developer the fun it really doesn’t matter so if the SEC is hell-bent on calling everything a security first and foremost I don’t care it doesn’t matter To me but if you are going to try to win that case which in this case they lost if you’re trying to win that case and you want to say that everything is a security then you have to make it cheaper and easier for the issuers and The exchanges to be able to issue and trade these tokens so specifically to the Ripple case why this is a big deal you know we mentioned we don’t think the the machinsky stuff is a big deal this Ripple news is a big deal for a few reasons right one is the consensus has Always been that Bitcoin is not a security and everything else is well this now shows a pathway for something other than Bitcoin to be Bitcoin to be labeled as not a security um and two it means that there’s a little less credibility for the SEC in their hunt saying everything is a Security and a little bit of a win for hey you can’t just pick on everybody just because you’ve largely picked on small entities that don’t have enough money or lawyers to fight back if you pick on a coinbase or you pick on a ripple or someone that’s big enough with Bigger lawyers they’re going to push back and they can win by rule of law so from a market standpoint what does this mean well it’s great for any other entities that have pending lawsuits which is coinbase and you know grayscale it’s great for service providers of non-bitcoin tokens which is like Coinbase and Galaxy and Kraken and some others and it’s great for all the tokens that were recently delisted like by Robin Hood for example which is cardano Matic Salata and it’s probably great for D5 which was the other elephant in the room whether it had defy tokens we’re Going to be deemed Securities and of course it’s great for the xrp token in the sense that you look at you look at platforms like PayPal what do they list they only list Bitcoin and Ethan Litecoin and Bitcoin cash right the four that have largely been assumed not to be Securities you look at Citadel and virtue and Schwab’s new platform edx what did they list they listed Bitcoin they listed ethereum they listed Litecoin the listed Bitcoin cash well now xrp might be included as the fifth token to be a non-security and just assumed by everybody to be okay to trade Now that doesn’t mean it has greater investment thesis it doesn’t mean that it changes anything with regard to what you think it may or may not be worth but it definitely improves liquidity it definitely improves breadth of markets and that’s a big win you know to piggyback on what Jeff was Saying great agree with it completely to Ripple’s credit and Richard you were touching on this as well like there wasn’t the legal apparatus to comply with when when when the token was issued right they only got to that in in the fall of 21 with the three-step process There’s only as Jeff said a handful of ats’s that can even trade tokenized security so like there should also be in addition to properly ruling and complying there should also be a some sort of race period to let those that are maybe not as black and white and That are gray make the choice to comply and get ahead of it so that there’s not an expensive and timely lawsuit so if we just take a step back be logical and and not worry about competitive incumbency and blah blah blah just focus on what’s Best for the first off the tech and the infrastructure side and then the investors secondary to that it could go a lot smoother than it has Richard thoughts yeah I think uh yeah I think we’ve just seen this sort of this swing backing momentum between you know a lot of Uncertainty and a lot of accusations being made and yeah the the important thing now the key thing to focus around is you know as Jeff mentioned there’s these these well-resourced entities that can hire the right legal teams to take these processes to fruition I think the next key one that clearly I Think is critical for the for the industries around coinbase I mean you know the most interesting uh yeah they’re extremely well capitalized entity and they work across everything to do that everything to do with crypto from you know Trading through to custody through to staking so you know them going through a legal Process and getting determination around their business model and and the accusations made against it provide a lot of certainty or a lot of I guess a lot of certainty around the the gamut of opportunities or the government of activities that could be conducted in crypto and how they’re seeing legally Yeah I should say by the way I’m looking at the chart right now for ripple it’s up uh xrp I should say it’s up about 30 uh here on the day uh right now trading at about 61 cents if you look at this chart on a 30-day basis I don’t know if We can bring that up uh there it is uh you basically see it looks like a flat line uh followed by just a moonshot vertical bar uh upward straight up 30 today yeah I want to reiterate there though like if you believe whatever you believe the value proposition of xrp is It didn’t change because of today right the xrp value proposition whether that being a crossbank settlement or whatever you think the future value of xrp may be right that doesn’t change at all on this what really changes though is simply the liquidity right two three years ago Whenever it was xrp was when this lawsuit first started xrp was delisted by coinbase it was delisted by other places it was limited in terms of where you could trade it to a lot of offshore Asian exchanges um this potentially really increases the liquidity and the willingness of Um platforms to re-list or or list for the first time xrp so a very big win from a liquidity standpoint and again everybody differs in terms of what they think tokens are worth some people think it’s only a trading vehicle some people think there’s real fundamental value obviously very tokens are very different Whether you’re a currency um or more of like a pass-through uh token that that uh resembles Equity but in this case I think this is a huge win in terms of the liquidity that is going to be offered for the xrp token all right so let’s take the conversation Up a little bit more broadly obviously we had some two major news flow stories here on the day let’s take the conversation a little bit broader and talk about what you guys see aside from these news stories today in terms of the general tenor of the environment there’s A lot of talk a lot of optimism among certain quarters about this idea of it being in a spring thaw here with crypto what do you guys think yeah happy to go first sir um yeah I mean look I I I I personally in our firm we were calling a bottom for The market in December right it was so much unnatural selling that was happening in December because of FTX because of um you know window dressing at the end of the year you know don’t forget there’s a lot of Trad five funds who owned a fair amount of crypto in some Way shape or form and they did not want that showing up at their end of year statement so they were you know coinbase stock was getting killed grayscale was getting killed it was very unnatural so the bottom from a pure kind of just Market standpoint seemed fairly obvious In December what didn’t seem obvious was why would we go higher right it’s one thing to say that we’re done going down it’s another thing to say well what actually is going to take you go higher and there was basically three things that have happened um this year that have started to bake In that upside bull case right the first is the regional banking crisis in March that was a huge huge win for Bitcoin you look at a chart of kre the regional banking ETF versus Bitcoin and it is nearly negative of your perfect negative one correlation is that as Regional Banks went down and people started to lose confidence in their banking system and the nationalization of banks um from governments that was a huge win for well maybe I should own a bearer asset like Bitcoin to protect myself so I don’t have to worry all weekend of whether or Not I can make payroll the next day um that was huge the second is the complete decoupling from a correlation standpoint with macro um you know also the last 18 months or really from November 2021 when the FED started hinting at hiking rates through the end of 2022 we were moving lockstep With macro the correlation was off the charts and every piece of economic data that was hot was being viewed as a negative for markets because it meant higher inflation and therefore more rate hikes that has completely shifted this year for um the correlation is back down To the historical Norms which is to say basically very little correlation between stocks and digital assets but also um you can see the way market in general are reacting to positive economic data the markets actually want positive economic data right now because that means no recession they’re less Concerned about inflation and rate hikes and they are more concerned about whether or not we’re going into a recession so the continued strong economic data that we saw in May and June has actually been good for Global markets um and that’s a huge huge shift um you Know one of the things we do as active investors is we have to notice when patterns shift and that’s probably the most important pattern shift that we’ve seen this year and then third and most specifically is just you know you hear it all the time but it’s actually true Right now which is that the institutions are coming to digital assets this BlackRock and Citadel news in June is probably the most important piece of news we’ve ever had in terms of institutional adoption you have BlackRock with nine trillion of assets you’ve got you know everyone else that’s That’s coming along from you know a Fidelity to Schwab to now you know Franklin Temple and State Street I mean you’re talking about you know multiple tens of trillions of dollars of asset managers that are basically behind this technology now and and doing it to put their investors into Um these products and and probably lost is that you also have Goldman issuing reports on tokenization B of A put out the best hundred page report I’ve ever seen on the future of tokenized assets um you had uh JPMorgan putting something out so you have that that kind of stuff Only happens when customers are demanding it so and you can see right um I know everyone else wants to talk to so I’ll try to wrap this up but uh you know you can see the institutional Capital coming in a couple of places right the First is that if you look at just the CME CME open interest increase 34 immediately on the back end of the black filing what that shows is that the CME is largely used by traditional Financial firms it’s not really used by crypto natives crypto natives can trade on Binance or coinbase or whatever else it’s the non-crypto natives that trade on the CME and a huge spike in trading and open interest on the BlackRock news you also saw the grayscale premium or discount narrow quite a bit right and why it’s because if you have money Sitting in a brokerage account you can’t immediately get it to coinbase or someplace to buy Bitcoin or ease but you can immediately buy a security like grayscale you know obviously and also because of the fact that grayscale may be able to convert to an ETF eventually But but also just the flows we’re seeing in stocks like coinbase stocks like marathon and Riot the miners stocks like grayscale huge institutional flows going into the the stocks that they can buy um and you know you look at those together and and that is a Prelude to money eventually working its way Directly back into this ecosystem via hedge funds via direct buys from family offices Etc so this was real this was not the traditional Trope of oh the institutions are coming with no data behind it I mean there was real flows coming into this Market on the result as a result of that Jeff really important comments I should say we’re running an hour today so we all have plenty of time to give the kind of depth that you just gave there Jeff some very important points you just made uh Chris over to you your thoughts if you could respond to Jessica I think Jeff made some great points there about the general structure of this Market uh what’s happening with institutional adoption in terms of BlackRock Citadel on the edx exchange yeah I as a Quant like Jeff’s 100 right in his analysis of there being literally no correlation to stocks I I would Unpack and separate certain macro factors um from stocks as being one in input to macro but uh there’s no correlation to interest rates no meaningful correlation interest rates there’s no correlation to business cycle there’s no correlation to revenues cost HR etc etc et cetera so that’s a really good point for all Investors to think about this as an asset class because we have essentially these cyclical cycles that have been part of essentially what I would call macro or secular cycle one and then a bear cycle two and we we probably are kicking off another secular bull cycle here Um the auto harmonics with the charts as you pointed out on the tech ta um peace bash on Tuesday was pretty awesome um it does match but perhaps for different reasons and I also think that the institutional side that we’ve all been hearing both Jeff Richard myself have been hearing That since probably before we even launched the funds because that’s why we launched them you know six years ago um I I think it’s definitely picked up in in conversations but I want to make the point that U.S investors specifically they’re on and off ramps have been severely impaired right so as Jeff rightly pointed out what we’re seeing here with the stocks that have crypto correlated performance unlike 2020 and 2021 when they greatly lagged the crypto the price of crypto assets themselves they’re now way ahead of it most of those mining stocks are up three four hundred percent Um and and now we could see that flip from a lag to a lead and as Jeff again rightly pointed out we as hedge fund managers need to recognize patterns evolve quickly correlations change we change and adapt to all the new data so it’s fascinating as a human being as a Historian as an investor and I want to point out that this is still not too late to convert Fiat into English lesson what we do know about Fiat is that it is always a race to zero since 71 down 98 dxy and then by the way Jeff you’ve left This little piece out that I think is also a confirmation of bull how many currencies globally has Bitcoin made a new high-end here today right it’s almost almost 10.so I think all of those factors lead interesting a weighting of the evidence um and I’ll quickly say what’s the bear Case because I always love playing both sides the bear case may perhaps be the most long long-term bullish case because the structure and fractals of the market would would somewhat look similar to 19 where you get an 800 rise and then a truncated double bottom where figure you Retests uh low 20s and then there’s no other trade but to be Max all in right so if it starts running away here I think people will get on the the fomo by side which right now we’ve got a very neutral sentiment that has flipped from focusing on every call being about FTX As I’m sure Richard and Jeff have discussed um to oh my God how do I place Capital where what banks are you guys on that I can wire money to so um I do I do think that that collectively paints a strong case for the bull site um intermediate term we’ve washed off Overbought conditions it does look real pretty right here it was chopping people up at the high end of the range which usually is a precursor to another Breakout Again by the way I should point out as you pointed out to me at the beginning of the show off camera uh dxy below a Hundred uh today just before we went live this morning Richard Galvin we’ve heard the long big picture thesis uh from both Jeff and uh Chris what are your thoughts yeah and I should carry this this with you know we’re Adventurer and long only investor so you know I’m biased long I’m Biased long deliberately that’s a fun strategy so yeah I’m a bullish guy by Nature on on this disruptive technology I think you know the points around the the correlation breaking down is something that you know we’ve had we’ve had conviction on over the last few years we think these asset classes You know it’s it’s Norm is not to be correlated to most other things that happen in the world and we think 2022 is was the abnormality not the not a new new and yeah so so not surprised that it’s you know it’s it’s reverted back to Where it started which is you know hype uncorrelated returns basically to almost everything and you’ve got to understand that’s in and of itself putting aside all other factors to do with it is a valuable piece in an investing framework when you can have an asset that that has Such you know such low correlations to everything else we think in terms of the market construct you know if you look for a positive that came out in 2022 as we went into 20 2023 you effectively cleaned up the investor base to those that had real conviction and those that Effectively had the strongest Hands to Hold This asset class through through the bottom of the cycle and you know that became clear I would agree with Jeff in those last two weeks December was quite an incredible time on Market you know there’s just four selling there’s only a few people kind of Standing in front of the way of the sellers it looked very abnormal Market we went Max long into that period we didn’t expect the payback to be in the first couple of weeks of January we’re more than happy to take it but that did seem like an abnormal that did seem like The kind of key capitulation event around this around this sort of cycle so we think the Market’s relatively clean at the moment in terms of you know the owners that want to own only says that class are here for the longer term we haven’t seen the spikes up it’s kind of Hop money or leverage or any of those sorts of things as real people real people that want to own this real asset I think that what what takes us out of this journey and what you know what what gets us excited over the next few years Is the asset class needs to earn a re-rated and it earns a re-rating not just on flows of capital or fomo or whatever it might be it ends up rewriting on continuing to exist continue to innovate and actually continue to attract users and have people paying fees and all those sorts Of things and I think that’s one of the encouraging things when we talk to investors you know through the first half of this year is you know there’s a realization that it’s not going away there are still users you know why fee levels are down our turnovers lower or Whatever it may be is lower it’s still quantums above where it was you know only a few years ago so you know we’re getting that step change it’s through a cycle and it’s an extremely volatile cycle but it’s a cycle that’s got an upward trajectory in terms of user base and Fundamentals and at the end of the day fundamentals demand that prices move if they continue to improve long enough and we think we’re in that kind of cycle where we’re starting to attract investors back because you know the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated and we’re starting to see Activity sort of find levels and build upon bases now yeah I think all three of you have just articulated the bull case uh in the view that you guys see in a very I think specific and clear way that talks about the bigger picture of everything that’s Happening right now uh but let’s since we’re having this conversation here in real time uh let’s take this party right to what’s Bloomberg has just updated on their website in the last uh 15 minutes or so since we’ve been live uh the reason I was being so cagey about what I Was saying earlier about Ripple is I didn’t want to mischaracterize it I was looking at the the real-time uh flow from our friends over at blockworks who are analyzing the Court ruling on the prong by prong on the Howie test and it actually sounded to me very unfavorable Meanwhile I’m looking at the xrp token spiking in price this is from Bloomberg and I think this characterizes what’s happening pretty well to get a sense of it and I get to get response from you guys a federal judge ruled that Ripple Labs token is a security when sold to Institutional investors but not the general public granting a partial win to the SEC in a long-awaited decision that could help determine the future of crypto regulation U.S judge anna-lysa Torres in New York on Thursday said the crypto firm sales of the xrp token to sophisticated investors met the test for An investment contract under Federal Securities laws so this is a an interesting uh well I would say Ripple in the case Wrinkle In the case trying to get a sense of what this means I know that this is all real uh time here as we come across but it is interesting to see That this ruling appears at least in terms of the Bloomberg characterization to be asserting that Ripple is a security when sold to institutional investors but not not to the general public according to this recent lead Rewritten by Bloomberg here in the last 15 minutes do you guys have any thoughts On this I know I know this is very uh new Ash um that’s bass backwards number one because qib’s don’t have don’t typically have to comply with accredited and Retail investor type limitations right so if you’re a qualified institutional purchaser you probably know what you’re getting Into and then I I don’t mind the Court’s specification of the sale of it could be construed or considered a security but the asset itself is not because those are two different activities right yes so I do like that domination and I think as Jeff pointed out the ruling opens up Um really a lot of positive for a lot of assets that people aren’t even able to separate the the lab from the asset itself so I I think either way it’s a positive but as a Qi P I probably wouldn’t like being told that anyone else have any reaction I know This is new and breaking well no I mean just the obvious right which is that you could have something that is not a security but the sale of it itself is a security offer right I think I mean you go back to the Howie test the whole point like oranges Themselves were not Securities but the you know sale of the uh uh uh or orange juice teachers was right so I think that that’s a huge differentiation again it may when we go back to what I’ve said about nothing being illegal about being a security but it matters if You are an issuer of a security well there’s no more xrb tokens that are ever going to be issued so you can say okay here’s a fine or whatever for issuing a Securities offering but if the xrp token itself is not issued is not viewed as a Security that’s a huge win for the platforms and those who are now able to list or re-list the xrp token so there’s Nuance I know the legal jargon gets boring but um you know again the big win is for you know if you notice when I said all the Things that I think mattered uh and would should react positively to this news it was all tokens and platforms that already existed right it’s not great news necessarily for a U.S issuer who is thinking about issuing a token because it doesn’t change anything for them right you still may have to figure Out if you’re a security or not and go through a Securities offering to issue new tokens for existing tokens already out there your solanos your matics your cardanos and your existing platforms are already trading the stuff like your coinbases it’s a huge win for them yeah it’s really interesting and you bring up An important Point here which is it it almost sets up uh this path uh to uh sort of legitimize if you if you uh essentially pay a fine I believe it was eos uh that did that pay to fine for the way that the token was issued uh but Then the underlying uh the underlying token itself is not a security I know this is complicated nuance and we’re parsing this in real time but Jeff that really is an important point about a potential path forward for the space and quite well said Richard Galvin thoughts yeah I think Two things there they yeah yeah the the sale to you know institutional investors or or whatever terminology it is is correct in which part of the globe you’re in so sophisticated institutional investors it’s a pretty well well-worn path so if you know and we’re obviously you know coming at this You know straight off the headlines but but if you’re in a world where that becomes a you know more regulated uh uh Securities like construct that’s something that you know everyone on this course used to dealing with and there’s a you know there’s millions of lawyers literally globally that that go through Security sales the institutional investors or some form of sales to institutional investors day in day out and that’s a well-tron path that this space can that can can can adopt and move to and it’s largely what most people do today anyway I think the key Point to come out of that is you know the point Jeff made earlier and why you know would be would be my rationale for why Ripple’s obviously responded so positively to this news it’s about access to actually trade and the liquidity of Ripple and it feels like from listening to your description there And looking at the headline it feels like that judgment you know does does do what Jeff first mentioned in terms of allowing report to be traded again on on exchanges and basically lifting that access and you know if you have security a and security being they’re exactly the Same but security he has you know much better liquidity than security hey security but you should try to we’ll trade at a premium you know that’s tried and true mathematics mathematically proven right and so today we’re basically seeing you know with this judgment and it looks like you know that Is the case that you know access to access to xrp is going to be better today than it was yesterday and liquidity should increase and so all else has been equal you know you see a price reaction yeah I should say we’ve got a couple hundred people watching us live on YouTube right now put down your questions in the chat we’ll ask the best ones remember real Vision members take priority if you’re not a real Vision member yet I’ve got great news for you go to realvision.com forward slash crypto to sign up it’s free and will remain so remember the crypto gathering Campaign is taking place all week we’ve got more exciting panels to come so please sign up to stay up to date and we’re going to be asking your questions uh later in the show you know uh Jeff you mentioned earlier there the BlackRock response and I thought what was really interesting about the BlackRock ETF filing was the comments that uh that I think uh Larry Fink gave on Fox Business with Charlie gasparino where he essentially made the case for Bitcoin I thought uh in a framework that sounded very familiar and incredibly appealing to bitcoiners this idea of Larry Fink uh you know this Titan of Traditional Finance going on a mainstream business show and talking about Bitcoin as an International asset as an electronic form of gold I thought that was an incredibly interesting position for him to take we’ve heard lots of uh you know CEOs uh in the asset management space in the banking space Talk about asset tokenization uh in the dollarized terms but this idea of thinking of Bitcoin as an asset as a store value Off the Grid as an alternative to the US dollar coming from Mr Fink I thought was quite compelling yeah and and you know I think first of All anybody who has been in finance um especially traditional Finance or has been an investor has a tremendous amount of respect for Larry finken for BlackRock so obviously when he’s going to speak you want to listen um if you actually listen to the whole thing he said though You know it’s worth illicit I guess because of who it was but honestly it wasn’t very insightful he fumbled between the term crypto and Bitcoin a few times um often conflated tokenized assets versus Bitcoin and more equity and utility like assets um you know and quite frankly that’s Probably to be expected right he’s the CEO of 100 billion dollar company which oversees nine trillion in assets I wouldn’t expect him to be you know the the world’s most foremost expert on all things blockchain um and that’s why I think what was more interesting than that was the 100 page Report from Bank of America the 30-page report from City all these other uh research uh reports coming out of the big bulge brackets where it actually did a much better job of differentiating between Bitcoin and uh you know ethereum and uh rwa days and or real world assets You know tokenize a real world assets as well as defying things like that so I think yes Larry Fink it’s himself that’s a huge win for Bitcoin and for crypto in general because it was him but I also think underneath the surface there was a lot more going on and and specific to Bitcoin which I think really was what Larry thinks Focus was meant to be on because that’s specifically the ETF that they’re filing is a Bitcoin ETF you know you have to go back to like I mean I I put in one of our recent articles that I Wrote uh um talking about like go back to some of the things that people said about Bitcoin back in like 2019 for example like I remember and I wrote These specifically it’s like this is what Edward Jones Investment strategist said that we don’t like the specifics of Bitcoin and we really think the price is moving around purely on speculation uh when you think about Bitcoin you’re looking to buy something that you hope to sell for more we would not advise investing in it um you know it’s the same literally a week later there was the CIO of aliens Who said the same thing as an Institutional Investor you should not you could not actually explain a position in Bitcoin uh the valuation is not possible they have no income uh it’s not an investment um and then immediately after it was a um I forgot but another one was like the Value of crypto is in the eye of the beholder it makes it’s unsuitable for investing so the biggest takeaway was not necessarily his words it’s just that in just four years we went from this being an Untouchable asset in the minds of institutional investors and and the Big asset managers to all of a sudden everyone’s trying to figure out who could be first or at least not last when it comes to um uh uh offering these products and I think that’s probably the biggest thing here is that if you are an asset manager In any way shape or form right now you have a decision to make either you find a way to offer these products to your clients because they want it or you start sending them to someone else who is yeah I think you hit the nail on the Head Jeff but also let me let me add there’s a big differential between Larry Fink’s reaction and why he’s reaction reacting right it’s first off that 9 trillion isn’t his money it’s it’s pension fund retirement account mostly 401K money right so totally different than Bill Miller saying I have XYZ amount of of Bitcoin since you know the last five five plus years right so that that’s a very different commitment as an investor as a human being so smart investors like Bill Miller who invest their money alongside their clients like the three of us on this call do as well Make a move early take the risk and understand it this is a reaction because it but still positive right a reaction because he’s getting so much demand from his clients that he will lose business if he doesn’t create product to sell to them like that is why all of these Listings have occurred for no other reason right it’s not like they want to have you know the G7 to go away or G20 go away it’s only client demand that’s driving that which is fantastic um secondarily like what what I like is it’ll offset some of the uh negative convexity and adverse Election that the Futures ETFs have so you have all of these kind of really retail destructive constructed uh ATF ctns commodity etns vix etns are a good corollary or comparison that are are just not healthy you pull a bit oh you look at that chart you look at any chart Of the so-called exchange traded products that have Futures in it they cost 15 to 20 just to own the thing like that that’s not a safe productive vehicle for retail investors so this spot ETF in my opinion constructed well will be and then as Richard well knows The US is the only one without etps and ETFs like it’s all over Europe and Canada and Asia so I you know I don’t think it’s going to be materially impactful uh for any other reason than narrative like that they yeah we look at the the BlackRock filing the subsequent filings It’s more of a more of a regulatory signal as opposed to a you know uh a game changer in terms of flows so I think that the marginal benefit in terms of flows from uh you know Bitcoin ETF in the US is obviously much smaller now than it was back in say 2017 when the Winklevoss twins had their sort of first run at it you know access to bitcoin access to crypto is coming out in Leaps and Bounds now it’s still you know it’s it’s still a step forward it’s still you know it brings a it Brings a an easy way to an easy way to trade an asset within a construct of your brokerage accounts and that sort of stuff to the world’s biggest Market but I think the incremental benefit of that is you know less than it used to be yeah it would have been you know three Or four years ago and from a Global Perspective it’s very U.S Centric I think for us the the bigger reaction is it’s the signal of well you know the regulatory the regulatory scorched Earth’s thesis is probably a little overblown it’s not so much around killing the asset class as about as Opposed to determining who are the who are the actors that are effectively controlling or trading or or or or putting products around it and I think for us you know an interesting data point that we sort of Saw coming into the end of last year and it I think it Was literally just a week after the collapse of FTX was a was an article David Solomon the CEO of Goldman writing the Wall Street Journal where he sort of did a yeah which was an interesting time to put it put it out in the press back then when it was obviously you know Calamity for the industry around the FTX collapse and the like we actually put forward that the you know they still believed in the technology and uh and the benefits are provided and The Innovation that was possible there they because their push was but it just Needed to be in the hands of you know traditional regulated institutions like themselves and that’s kind of the roadmap I guess we’ve seen particularly in the US player since he sort of put that article in we have seen a swing towards as regulated um I guess uh institutions that a large Have that relationship with Regulators going over decades have that sort of back and forth with regulators and I guess The Regulators sort of know and trust starting to take a bigger they’re starting to take a bigger foot forward into the space and it’s interesting to sort of kind of all Come from the collapse of FDX which you know in in a you know a few years ago or in another in in another dimension could have basically blown up all that interest in this interest in the in the technology but it hasn’t right it’s basically just changed the field of Players that are that are that are looking to take the lead in it yeah well one have large financial institutions ever voluntarily interrupted themselves yeah garage institutions before there’s not a lot of areas for financial institutions to find growth grind compressed fees all those sorts of Things right and it’s just been a grind for decades so new new potential kind of asset classes new markets uh yeah a few and far between in the financial services industry so it’s no surprise that you know big institutions want to get involved and and see how they can Sort of you know extend their services into it you’ve seen it plenty of times before though I mean like you know don’t go back seven years ago when betterment and wealthfront started the robo advising yeah um you know the initial if you go back to the initial uh headlines there It was you know financial advisors are dead because Robo investing is going to take over and instead three years later what happened is every big financial advisor from you know Morgan Stanley to Merrell to um you know you name it they just started to create their own Robo Advising platforms that you know we are still going to offer you our financial advisory service but here’s also a piece of it which is now Robo investing on behalf of you right so it’s it’s rare that new technologies completely displace the financial institutions they do disrupt but they don’t displays the Big firms just find a way to get their share of the pie and that’s what we’re seeing right now and I would actually push back a little bit on on what Richard and Chris said in terms of I actually do think this BlackRock ETF if it gets approved will have a meaningful Effect on the flows for the for the sole reason that investors and people in general are are just inherently lazy when you can when you can do something within the ecosystem that you’re already doing it’s just easier right like you know for example I was never a huge Gamer I would never just like seek out games but once I got an iPhone and the games were right there it was easy and Angry Birds ended up on my phone um similarly they go back and look at like uh uh uh you know internet browsers right the initial ones like Netscape and Mozilla and Firefox well who’s winning it now it’s Google with chrome and Safari from Apple because you’re already in those ecosystems there’s a ton of investors out there that are already in The Brokerage and bank system which includes obviously a lot of black Rock Products it’s just easier so even though Chris and Richard both said and it’s true that it’s not hard to get access to bitcoin right now across the globe it’s still an extra step or two right it’s still an extra workflow to have to open up a coinbase account or open up a binance account or to have a self-hosted Wallet like that’s just you know for the for the the the for the lazier or just you know uh maybe the better word is just uh those who prefer an easy workflow uh it does matter it is going to be a lot easier for traditional I Mean take take our fun for example like we trade uh across crypto native platforms like your finances and coinbases we trade on the CME we trade on brokerage accounts Like We Do It oh it’s still torture moving money back and forth there’s still no great easy Way to do everything in one place as that democratization happens as you start to be able to do everything in one place your Commodities your stocks your bonds your crypto and that’s a huge deal totally agree and the UI ux in the space right now is terrible uh for traditional Users and and by the way also not just ease of use but also to your point Jeff uh the trust factor I think there are a lot of people who are interested in these assets but are very skeptical hesitant afraid whatever word you want To choose uh to go in and set up a self-hosted wallet I think it’s just an additional barrier to entry you know it’s fascinating and I love having conversations like this because guys are all broadly bullish but slightly different shades of view uh in terms of this perspective on the space and I Think it’s it makes for an incredible conversation I wanted to bring in some of our questions coming in from YouTube uh the first one comes to us from JP Stanley on YouTube uh this is a question for Chris but I’m going to ask it of all Of you if you can only have one Solana or polygon very specific question obviously there’s no one ring to rule them all um so I’ll do both I’m on a t-shirt yes stand by oh send it send around to everybody um there’s got to be a Lord of the Rings One with it already but um I I you know there are they’re just pros and cons to each I own both full disclosure fund owns both Parker makes both Stakes both so full disclosure uh there um I was hyper critical of the hype cycle of Solana I didn’t like some of The VC pump be dump marketing crap that was going on and I also didn’t like the consensus mechanism which is called proof of History um that being said what I can say of the dev team that the GitHub updates and them holding was super Alpha and it is What people who can survive the space and evolve despite maybe making previous mistakes um I’ve done and then I I believe that their recent hackathon had over ten thousand seven thousand some insane amount of hackers join um so I think that those are Monster positive coming out of a you know a 242 Price High I think was the price size somewhere in that range down to uh you know down 95 ish so I think Solana has has had survivorship Alpha essentially and has improved and done good deals done good things with the chain um the inflation rate has narrowed so that again long both Um I haven’t digested today’s Matic to all move yet so I I’ll Reserve comments on that but they’re just pros and cons and those are different assets and different use cases and different Theses to own them they’re both l1s and that’s really all they have in common in my Opinion and and the proof of stake side um here to basically equal weight in in my eyes Jeff Richard any thoughts on polygon versus uh versus Solana yeah we’ve been uh we’ve been a long-term hold of Solana since kind of the subatola level right since back in Uh 2000 and 2020 so and that remains a cool part of our Long Island portfolio we think it’s you know it’s pretty unique Tech we think it’s um you know it’s Journey over the last sort of year or two it’s kind of a microcosm of crypto in general Right like the and you know we think the the room of of its death are greatly exaggerated as well when you look at activity and and you know people still building on that chain and we’ve been active in the on the VC side as well uh packing number of projects there as well We think it’s yeah we think it’s one of the sort of core assets that provides really differentiated kind of user experience and capabilities to build on they’re really unique for crypto and so we think it’s got a long-term future in the space Jeff you want to wear it in there well I’m very curious what investment mandate this this question comes from that only allows you to own one um but uh we we you know full disclosure archit does on both right now although Solana is more of a long-term thesis whereas uh Matic is more of a short-term Trade just around some of the the technicals in oversold conditions but I guess the better way to think about it is in in general when you do thematic investing which is what we do you try to figure out first what is the theme what is the investment Thesis and then you try to figure out the best way to express that right so for instance over the last couple of years there’s been a lot of themes right first was just Bitcoin and blockchain then it was stable coins and it was D5 and it was nfts you could say Ai and Real world assets are in there thematically now as well um and you can obviously go deeper on all those as well like within D5 there’s plenty of subcategories as well so thematic and within those themes you generally want to own the number one leader in those categories and then you Probably want to own one or two of The Challengers because if you were right on the thesis chances are you’re going to get more bang for your buck on the second or third or fifth place who gains market share than you all number one for example like both McDonald’s and Burger King succeeded and even though McDonald’s is a clear number one over Burger King at certain parts in the investment cycle Burger King would have been a better investment because they gained market share on McDonald’s over time right so um or Pepsi Coke same kind of thing so If you’re thinking about layer ones if ethereum is clearly the number one right now it’s 235 billion in market cap it does somewhere around 65 to 70 percent of all of the transactions of blockchain well Solana and Matic are both at about 7 billion to seven to nine billion right Now so your question is if you believe there is a future where layer 1 blockchains have a lot of economic activity happening on them do you believe that somebody is going to eat into ethereum’s market share or said another way you know should they be less Than you know less than five percent of the market cap I think Solana is a pretty safe bet to certainly gain market share versus ethereum over time because they are you know number two in just about every category right now from from D5 to nfts um maybe not in stable coins I think That’s probably Tron but um you know it to me that’s just a safe bet on convergence that if you’re right on the overall theme that layer 1 blockchains are going to grow and continue to be um a very big part of Financial and economic growth you want to own Ethereum and you want to own you know probably both Solana and Matic in terms of that conversion Richard anything yeah they’re partly competing over a pie of smart contract compute capacity and demand but also something like Solana has the ability to expand that as well right so we don’t Have the thesis around you know we’re buying Matic or Solana or Avalanche or whatever it may be because they’re an eighth killer and you know we we we’d contest that we can test that thesis we actually think through the something like Solana and the differentiation it’s got over ethereum can actually expand The whole space as opposed to fighting over just the one sort of market now of course there will be some competition where they cross over but we’ve you know we take it we take the same sort of view to Jeff in terms of owning a number of Players across the uh across the layer one sort of space because we think that they can operate and sort of find different use cases and specialize in different use cases and help expand the overall uh I guess user base and the overall capability of blockchain Technology together as opposed to Spotting over the one sort of thing yeah what what’s not really occurred on those two assets which I think they both can learn from the path uh on on evm and ethereum is LL twos are 80 90 focused on on ethereum now well what if what if 10 Of that shifts to the restyl ones because the salon is actually outperforming most of the basket about once you’re here today probably because it got so extreme on the downside but I think like looking at it from a very narrow pathway is is not going to yield The best result for any investor because you know you’ve got no comparison in terms of the quality of the asset between Matic Solana versus ethereum because ethereum 100 issued right it went through its proof of stake move in the middle of a giant bear market and Has proven itself to be uh I hate using this terminal too many times about ultrasound money it’s got a real yield of near seven and there’s no asset on the planet that has that so it is special and nothing can really touch its specialness just like Bitcoin in that Same manner just for different reasons so the ability to earn market share developer eyes Etc is there for smaller assets that that aren’t going to maybe get there as ultrasound money uh in the next you know two to three years well nothing can touch the specialness of This panel this has been an incredible conversation uh but I want to end on one final question because this is kind of a generalization of the prior question and I really want to get this from each of you the question comes to us from Paul from the real Vision website put on your Retail investor caps and tell us how you would position yourselves right now Richard Galvin let’s start with you yeah look I think the um uh cryptos is a cyclical asset and it’s a volatile asset and I think one of the things that I’ve done through both investing my own Money and then managing that funds as well is to try and buy Assets in the space that are real that can live through that cycle um you don’t want to get the you don’t want to get the investment decision right of you know I think blockchain technology is an incredible investment Opportunity but then end up owning the two or three assets that don’t make it through a cycle and you might have been writing 10 years time but you didn’t make it through because the the projects you owned or the assets you owned kind of peted out before they Kind of came to fruition and the space continued to grow so yeah we spend all our time trying to buy real assets some real real projects that can deliver so longer term user growth and fee growth or whatever it may be that they’re they’re looking to drive and hold those And they’re the sort of assets you can hold through a cycle and you need to be conscious that you’re going to get cyclical price outcomes in crypto and so you need to own things that are real that are tangible that you can hold conviction through through the dark days Like through 2022 and then hopefully benefit from as they start to sort of grow and sort of deliver on their promises you know as the cycle starts to turn Chris Sullivan over to you um I’m perhaps not as rosy as Richard um I would ask yourself one primary Question is my goal of investing to have more Fiat and if so to develop a trading plan and an investment thesis around that and if it is not that then it is back to how wealth is actually built the wealthiest people on the planet and the strategy Will work you know in for perpetuity is whoever gets Fiat into assets fastest wins right that is not an arguable thing so to me I I think it’s more about how you want to invest in the space are you going to take a Trader YOLO you know Assessment of it or are you going to to diversify your asset base and have it be a meaningful part of it um as you’re converting Fiat to real estate or stocks and bonds or precious metals and commodities if you’re going to add crypto to that then the thesis Should be more in line with what Richard said on quality assets and and I definitely know Jeff and his team are one of the best on the planet at that because there are incredibly high quality assets that already exist that have infrastructure that can replace or augment both government Wall Street and Consolable problems for very very little cost so I I take that view versus seeking more Fiat Jeff Dorman same question to you if you put on your retail investor hat what’s your allocation look like yeah I mean I think I think first and foremost it’s really important to separate your retail Investing versus your retail trading right trading is a lot of fun um you learn a lot from Trading there’s very few people who get rich trading you get rich investing and investing for a long period of time and then to Chris’s point you know you want to have as much Of your assets invested as possible at all times right whether that be equities or crypto or something else so even if you like to trade separate your piece of money that you’re trading for fun versus the the investing from the investing side um it’s it’s really simple right I mean Have a thesis have a thesis on what part of this industry you think is actually going to win and diversify your bets within those Theses right outside if you believe in layer ones own one or two of them if you believe in D5 own one or two Of them if you believe in um you know web free or nfts Etc I mean spread your bets around your long-term Theses and for the most part just hold them and then on the trading side get smarter get better with things around try to you know learn a little bit about technical Trading learn a little bit about which you know news and macro factors affect markets learn from the trading but don’t expect to get rich on the trade you get rich by finding your themes and your good tokens and the ones that are still going to be around in five or ten years And just you know one thing piece of advice don’t ever say it’s already up I’m not going to buy yeah it takes something something that is down say 90 right if it goes up 100 it’s still down 80 percent right if you start at 100 and It’s down 90 to 10 and it goes from 10 to 20.you didn’t miss it it’s still down 80 from where it was right so definitely don’t don’t prevent the real long-term 300 thousand percent winners because you get caught thinking you missed a trade that’s a really good point because Eventually we probably won’t be counting in Fiat or we’ll be counting in different Fiat than we’re counting in now uh but I do want to augment a little of my answer Ash because I think it despite the UI U.S ux difficulty every retail investor should commit to Ledger And metamask and commit to learning what it’s like to be your own bank the the freedom that the space offers is to be a sovereign unless you learn how to do that you’re not even embracing what the wealth building or or diversification attributes could even provide you so I I Think maybe changed my answer to learn how to benefit yourself with the technology of the space first and then worry about what you’re investing in second yeah a really important distinction self-sovereignty a different point from the upside potential of the underlying asset valuations themselves guys this has been a spectacular conversation to Have three hedge fund managers here on the same panel to have this talk really incredible and thank you both I thank you all I should say for helping parse through uh what was happening with ripple in real time just an incredible conversation I wish we had three hours For this but there is a solution we’re gonna have to have you all back one-on-one to have this conversation in more depth with each one of you but thank you so much really a great conversation thanks for having me Ash all right thanks Ash and thank you Richard and Chris thanks gents thanks guys that’s it for now but there’s more to come go to realvision.com forward slash crypto gathering for all sessions the conversation continues on Twitter spaces at 5 PM eastern time today with ARCA CEO Rayne Steinberg tomorrow is the final day of our campaign Rob will close it Out with OSF you don’t want to miss that one see you at 9am Pacific noon Eastern and 5 p.m London time tomorrow thanks for watching everybody Rick rule Rick rule is a favorite of the real Vision Community if you’d like to meet Rick and get a master class from The master himself you’ll want to head to the Rick rule Symposium on natural resource investing in Florida July 23-27 you’ll get access to Industry insiders Elite bullion dealers gold council members and uranium Pros just head over to realvision.com Rick for tickets that’s realvision.com Rick Join Rick Rule in person at the Rule Symposium on Natural Resource Investing in Florida, July 23-27.Access to industry insiders: elite bullion dealers, gold council members, and uranium pros.In-person and virtual seats available at http://realvision.com/rick It’s Day 4 of our “Crypto Gathering: Is It Game On?” campaign asking if we could be entering a new bull run and how to position yourself for it.When investing, it’s important to look at what the professionals are doing — so we’re asking some of the best in the business.Ash Bennington sits down with Jeff Dorman, CIO at Arca, Chris Sullivan, co-founder and co-portfolio manager at Hyperion Decimus, and Richard Galvin, co-founder, and CEO of Digital Asset Capital Management (DACM).
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