THORChain – RUNE MakerDAO’s Endgame: The Boldest Gamble in Crypto History | Rune Christensen This episode of Empire is brought to you by quick node quick node is an end-to-end blockchain development platform that makes building web 3 apps super easy no matter what you want to build you can effortly develop any application by leveraging their elastic apis go to quicknode.com use codeempire You’ll get a free month on their feature back build plan that’s right go to quicknode.com you’ll get a free month to start playing around you’ll hear more about quick node later in the show all right everyone welcome back to another episode of Empire you’ve got saunting me and then we are very lucky To be joined by roon um roon welcome to Empire thanks for having me yeah um for those who don’t know roon roon is uh one of the uh is the founder of uh maker maker Dao um which has two brands that you probably all know maker and die Uh roon I think you are one of the longest running Founders in D5 maybe the longest running founder um uh and which I think you’ve been building maker for like eight eight and a half years now which is pretty remarkable um we are here I want to discuss makers End game you just posted uh you first proposed this in May of 2022 and then you just published the five phases of the end game a couple of weeks ago and I really want to talk about that but I think it’s important to just almost set the scene here Um and talk about the first eight years of maker um and you know I know Santi you’ve worked pretty closely with maker when you were at parify um but ruin maybe if you can just kind of set us up with like the last eight years and like what led us to the end Game how did we get here the really big theme of the I mean this entire history of maker that’s LED uh to where we are now right is this kind of um the sort of the ebb and flow of sort of trying to become a Dao and trying to become fully decentralized and Then like trying to actually do things so it started out with in the very early days of maker right like literally all the way back in like early 2015 it was this like hyper ideological libertarian project right to sort of try to basically uh kind of transplant the I Like sort of the ideals of bit shares onto ethereum um and building a kind of a stable coin based on the original pictures model and and yeah basically into the ethereum ecosystem and so we started off as this like yeah like super ideological um maybe it’s like almost a conspiracy Theorist type uh group of early crypto people um and we were like just obsessed with like Dao concept um actually funnily enough even though we were like super ideological back then we were still considered sort of Boomers and and like way more boring than like the average like Crypto person just because the whole Space was so extreme back then um but so what we did was we like ran the entire project uh through these like open Sunday governance calls so I think I think we call them the government’s calls and so basically it was like every Sunday we’d Have these like calls at a set time when TeamSpeak and then all decisions were made unanimously by whoever showed up to those calls uh I actually ran the project like that for like two years it’s all like decisions related like payments and so on was done through these like open Calls where anyone could join and like if you were some like random person you could like jump in and just like veto everything and we didn’t have a mechanism to even handle it um but uh but what we did have was like lots of like super Geniuses and crazy people and Early crypto developers and all that and um yeah I mean it was great uh but and we got a lot of like research done a lot of thinking a lot of philosophy done but we couldn’t really sort of kind of build an actual product right because this kind of uh you know Uh yeah like total decentralization with no structure whatsoever especially like absolutely at the early stage in a project like this just it just didn’t work out basically and actually what did end up happening was that um as it always been my goal I sort of like pulled out of the project after About like two years or so and I was like oh it runs itself now this Sunday calls they totally like run themselves right but then what happened was that people like it just became impossible to reach consensus because I had sort of had this role of like the one that was Sort of you know like heard the cats kind of right and then once I pulled out then eventually what happened is like people to stop getting paid basically like it’s not to be possible to make decisions around like paying the contributors so nobody was pay was Getting paid and I had to like come back into the project and then this is kind of like the first example of like kind of like ebb and flow where then as I came back and I was like okay I can’t this we gotta figure out a way to get Forward so that’s how we set up the um the die Foundation and we’re basically like okay we’ll just scratch the whole like pretend dial thing with Sunday calls and whatever because that’s something for like I mean the product needs to be done first before you can do something with it So we build a foundation as like a proper sort of um organizational structure right we’re like a leadership team and a hierarchy and all of this stuff and they were sort of set up to like it needs to deliver the protocol and then turn it over back to some kind of down structure Um and that then talk about yeah I think it was like three years or something got the foundation um and we delivered uh you know simple uh well Psy uh as it’s called nowadays a singular diet right in in December of 2017 and then it sort of culminated in the Launch of MCD which is the current version of die in uh also like end of end of year 2019.um and then after MCD was launched it was sort of the foundation was almost done with its work but it did sort of stay on for another Like one and a half years to basically maintain and uh kind of finalize the protocols security basically and then we sort of went back into this mode of okay we’re dissolving the foundation and we’re gonna like sort of hand it over to the community right uh and and what the sort of the Community came up with to run the system once the foundation was gone was the co-unit system um and the coiner system was basically I mean hindsight what it basically was was these like uh black boxes that got a bunch of money so and and what the expectation was kind Of like I mean it was still kind of I guess very ideological and libertarian from the early days some kind of idea of like the free market was sorted out somehow so we thought that somehow you put a construct like that in the hands of the people and then they’ll use It to self-organize these like very efficient and Market driven and you know processes that are that are going to do what’s best for the Dow um but yeah what ended up happening was of course well I mean this is like the big realization I think of like I think Many people across crypto and across the house is that Dows are intensely political right so when you do something like here’s the thing you can use to like take money out of the system uh you’re you’re creating this massive incentive to to sort of have people to basically play this political Dynamic That occurs by like like then who gets the money right and if this person gets the money then does this other person get the money and yeah um so uh sort of coinciding with the bull market uh maker built up this massive budget of something like 40 45 million Dollars per year or something like that through the coordinates and initially this was this was easy because the bull market made sure that the protocol was raking in tons of money uh and and everything was like good times right it was the big bull market and then care price was exploding um But then as the bull market sort of ended first of all the income started drying up in the system and secondly it became clear that there wasn’t really like a connection between paying out the money and getting actual results from these core units right because increasingly it was more like it was a Question of politics and like who’s getting paid not so much like what’s getting paid for right it’s more like a question of who right uh which is the age of again like I mean that’s how politics works right that’s also how like internal uh politics often Works in in companies And budgeting and so on so that’s kind of the thing that that led towards we have to actually solve like this question of how to how to allocate resources and governance how to run a balanced governance system yeah so this has been a so in my mind maker was super Interesting uh in the early days of verify where we sort of identified you’re the backbone of of D5 without maker D5 wouldn’t have taken off you know you needed have a stable unit of account and maker in my mind has been a Pioneer in many models and governance has been Something that has been heavily criticized which is super stagnant no one participates and there’s very few people that actually vote and a lot of the mkr supplies held by a few insiders that initially funded the project but don’t vote and don’t participate and it’s a complicated system that if you’re Not tracking it if you’re not in those Sunday calls you wouldn’t have had any semblance or really appreciation of what was going on so like I want to get your thoughts on like people are very critical of Dallas because people don’t show up don’t care if things go their way fine but if Things don’t go their way they complain but they will still not vote and it will still not be active so what does that what’s your view on and now you want to do this like total reorg of creating five different sub-dials and it initially from the outside in it Makes me skeptical because I don’t think that that’s like a viable structure but I’m curious to get your thoughts on generally governance and how to solve this problem and if it is even viable to assume that people are going to participate as the money increases the political kind of forces become more intense And once that realization like dawned on me that like I mean humans are you know they’ll I mean humans are humans right they’re like follow their incentives uh and and that means in this context that means politics um and it’s like very yeah I mean policies kind of sucks right A lot of People got into the house because they don’t like politics and so on and then to find out that actually it’s a big giant political game almost it’s a it’s a little bit uh yeah like um uh disappointing right and my reaction was actually be like okay well I guess It just can’t be done like I was really sort of at one point I just like ripped I was like I’ve wrote off thousand times I was like look it can’t be done and the reason is because like politics is already paid like you know an impossible problem to solve And then you add like uh you know uh anonymity to it and and the internet everything is over the internet right no one’s even meeting in person and there’s all this like speculation and there’s all of the crypto craziness and it just seems like an insurmountable toxic Cocktail and you just it’s just not gonna work like put a bunch of people in a room and give them some crazy high stakes money game and it’s gonna descend into like insufferable politics and the only people who want to play it are the people trying to exploit it right so Yeah so actually just like actually it was like okay look it you know it it can’t be done right it uh and and I was I was ready to like leave I mean I wanted to leave entirely and then the problem is what I realized is I couldn’t even leave because Because of the voter apathy problem my own MPR was like unsellable basically because if I tried to like sell my MPR I would like collapse the system and I would I would lose everything right so like the only choice I had okay I have To figure out how to fix it then and the solution to it is like understand human nature and basically build kind of mechanisms around it really just like you do in I mean a democracy or something like that right and just like a democracy is like messy and Whatever right like has tons of downsides it still like works and it’s still the sort of the least bad approach but in a tower with like a more narrow Focus like the more focused the kind of the the task of a Dao is the more it becomes possible to make it somewhat Uh more like I would say pure in a sense right that you can sort of you can you can tolerate and you can sort of engineer it to have much much less of this like human uh issues and the the key to it all like the kind of the fundamental um Uh Silver Bullet if there was such a thing right it’s just like rules and documentation and processes yeah the hard thing about putting rules in place is that things change so a Purify we were one of the initial proponents of adding usdc as collateral and that transition from single to Multiple collateral die hugely controversial but I don’t think if we had passed that uh during black Thursday it was right when everything collapsed like maker felt super precarious at the brink of like Extinction if you didn’t add uscc as collateral because diet debegged and it was firing Out and the keepers like there was the whole things that were failing in our opinion at the time and in the Forum was that we had to introduce usdc it was something that was hugely opposed by so many people difference was purifier was actually one Of the larger kind of players in in the stablecoin game at the time and probably still is so like when you talk about setting rules in place it becomes hard like how do you know which rules are going to work today and the rules that you’re putting in today are going to work In like six months because crypto is just a very adversarial ever-changing environment it’s not like the the Constitution of the United States it’s like certain values principles that we can all agree on you know don’t but crypto is sort of it’s difficult to codify these things and rules Um so I’m curious in practice like how does this actually work and create a system that is you know sound but also adaptable to this ecosystem that is constantly changing I mean what’s basically happened is those fundamental questions around uh the the ideal principles for for maker um At this point they’ve been they’ve been settled essentially around and and I mean one thing to point to is like yeah the fact that for sure you know people aren’t going to do anything if you don’t pay them so we need to have all these like paid uh you know contributors right that’s What’s I mean that was not apparent like eight years ago we really thought we would never leave it that was it was like a fundamental assumption you don’t need to do that people just volunteer when they hold the token just like they do in Bitcoin right And as for the real world assets I mean yeah it’s also just like I mean it’s been it’s it’s the market has proven it right I mean we’ve seen ride right and and how Rye is it totally works but it comes at a great cost of adoption Uh to have like pure crypto collateral or LUSD or whatever right like all these like these projects that basically sacrifice um Pagan scalability for for decentralized collateral right and then you’ve got um yeah right Terra Luna and something like proving that you can’t bend reality Either so you just end up back in this thing if you want to offer something uh you know something that that has a use experience similar to the US dollar you need to be like um you know you need to be connected to assets that that can guarantee the value In terms of US dollars right and if you don’t want that then I mean if you want to sort of untether entirely from the US dollar then you can’t then you can’t offer something that is stable relative to the US dollar as a product right and so so these principles are Yeah I mean basically it’s actually like there could be more fundamental principles like this right that the fundamentals of trade-offs fundamental uh sort of visions that that uh that we may not be aware of or something like that right that that will materialize in the future but from my perspective right now It like it’s no longer the case that there is some like giant unanswered question uh in maker and in all cases like what’s completely clear and like undeniable uh to me is that you have no choice but to basically settle on this is the this is the vision these are the principles If you want to achieve decentralization like you simply cannot have a situation where the principles themselves can change in a decentralized environment and that’s because if some I mean well and the reason is politics right because if some group or entity or faction or whatever if they’re able to kind of like Modify the principles then it like one of the principles they can modify is always going to be to what degree uh should this system be decentralized and then human nature and human incentives and all of that is going to kick in and you’ll always see Than what I call it I mean the slippery slope misalignment like the slippery slope towards well if it’s been possible to do a small power grip then you can do slightly larger you know then you now you’ve got more power now you’ve got most internalization and that that that Asymmetry allows you to just more easily sort of slippery slope slide towards centralization right and this is kind of what I actually saw again and again right it’s kind of like my big surprise was every time like like I was always the big sort of um uh you know like uh What do you call that right the big elephant in the in the town right that had this like centralizing effect over the years so originally there was always the sense of like oh if I pull back out if I stopped being involved the project then it will become more decentralized That seems sort of like natural logic right but it the problem is you know it’s this concept of a power vacuum basically that you end up with with with um you know with sort of uh the possibility I mean and sort of not just the possibility but the incentive and Kind of the the opportunity for others to to um kind of build the kind of system they want to build and the big difference between someone like me and then almost anyone else that that uh could be sort of like deeply involved in maker governance and and have a big Impact on it in the long run right is that like I have such incredibly sort of I guess you could say irrational exposure to the mpr2 right that for me actually like long-term success of maker uh it’s way more important for me than whatever sort of random value I could Sort of extract out of the project uh you know through my my through like a governance proposal or something like that right yeah can I can I ask you a question just on this point of governance so like uh for our listeners they might be wondering so like mkr that token is a Governance token it allows you to vote on proposals now in this new system which we’ll get to in a minute you’re codifying a lot of rules that over the time we’ve come to learn some principles of how to build a stablecoin protocol which I appreciate at the moment the value of the mkr Governance token is roughly 650 million you have value locked in the maker system to Mint uh the stablecoin is roughly 7 billion and so I’m curious the value of mkr has collapsed on a number of metrics not just the absolute level but also relative to eth What is what does that tell you like why is mkr underappreciated what’s the ratio so that’s question two what’s the ratio between the value of mkr and the value locked in the system like what’s the right way to think about that is that even relevant but I’m Curious what’s that value of the token and why do you think it’s underappreciated in the market over appreciated I’m just kind of curious what your views are on mkr it’s uh because you know Crypt is an attention economy and maker has always been exceedingly good at building actual well I mean we’ve Been very slow but we’ve been very good at building you know solid actual functional economic Primitives right and uh and uh you know well I feel like you have to be slow because you’re the central bank no Central Bank in the world should be pretty fast in breaking stuff Yeah sure I mean at the same time there’s been a lot of issues right to sort of go down and change it right actually maker has been it’s more like it’s not just slow but also we’ve been very we’ve made the wrong operational decisions sort of so maker has spent many years Doing a lot of random side projects that turn out to be pointless so it’s not I mean so it’s like it’s extra slow right because we weren’t just like slowly building a cool stuff we were also like slowly building random distractions that the governance process weren’t able to do like it Wasn’t able to control prioritization and made a lot of wrong decisions like that but anyway but I mean and well and all of that contributes to just this like Boomer label right that that maker has said this is like the most boring it’s like the furthest away from like a meme coin Right that that an exciting new shiny meme coin that could possibly get um and uh yeah I mean I mean the data and the the statistics and so on sort of speaks for itself but I think basically at this point the market psychology is just so like incredibly entrenched right that it’s Just like it’s like it’s like mkr’s like a reverse meme coin in a sense right it’s just like fully sort of doomed to to not be exciting um of course until that’s not the case anymore right but from my perspective I really don’t think I mean the great thing about fundamentals and Surplus cash flow and all this thing it’s just like the candy you know it’s like gravity right so uh the thing that is not it’s never going to be the price of Imperial the adoption of Imperial it’s always going to be the adoption of die right the the actual business right Yeah and and maybe just if you could comment on the second question which was how we should how you think about the relationship between to your point around the adoption of dye and the value that is locked in the system relative to the value of the governance token itself mkr which is at The moment like a factor of of 10.how do you see that relationship evolving over time well I mean so the mechanism is well I mean in the past it’s been extremely simple right it’s really just as the as the system generates a surplus it uses that to buy and burn um And then with endgame it’s I mean fundamentally it’s going to be the same it’s just going to be more sophisticated so like for instance the initial kind of uh when the burn gets turned back on right with this new upgrade that’s coming it’ll not just be Buy and burn it’ll be buy and make a sort of the default setting which means instead of like directly just like buying up the tokens um and then burning them it’s like using using Surplus to basically buy 50 mkr uh I mean 15 governance tokens and then Take 50 die and then Market make it in unit swap for instance so you don’t just like uh sort of one-off uh kind of transfer the value into the market and to the whatever whoever’s selling at that point in time but rather you build up this more like long-term durable Value that sits and helps you know provide liquidity and value for the token in the marketplace all right quick break from the show there is this kind of overused cliche saying in crypto but it’s true bear markets are building and everyone tells you that everyone knows It what people don’t know is that if you’re building apps in crypto and building apps in web3 without using quick node you are building on hard mode so quick note is is this amazing blockchain development platform it reduces costs streamlines the time to market for your app and it 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handle the security let quick note handle the performance while you focus on building beautiful products for your users visit quicknode.com super easy you can use Code Empire you’ll get a free month on their build plan so don’t forget to use codeempire Santi and I gotta get credit for this one so they know that we sent you and you will get a first month free hope you guys enjoy it can we uh transition into talking about The end game and specifically maybe I think the best way to do this just because there’s there’s so much here is to talk about the the five phases here right we’ve got the we’ve got a new brand we’ve got a new stable coin governance token a bunch of sub Dows Um that are kind of distributed through like farming and governance and AI tools um maybe if you could just walk us through the five phases of this end game that you published three weeks ago I think that’d be a good starting place here so yeah so endgame has always had this kind of Uh step-by-step uh kind of approach to it right that the idea is to base I mean to to the point we were talking about earlier of like we need to like solidify the rules and sort of like scope about this is what it is and this Is these are the immutable parts of it uh and then uh kind of decentralized governance and decentralized kind of Stack can an ecosystem can develop around that because the core pillars are fixed right so the five phases are basically rolling out and deploying these core immutable pillars Until uh the project reaches then what we call the end game state which is this like final immutable State that’s it’s it’s sort of uh some it can be prescribed as like a Bitcoin like right where sort of like this is how it works this is what it does Uh and then there’s a lot of opportunity to do things with it right so um the very first stage is uh I mean this is what we call the beta launch it’s really kind of like the launch this the you know this what do you call It the starting uh shot for like the whole transition to end game and the beginning of these phases so the big focus focus on the first phrase is um the the new brand uh and the reason why we need a new brand I mean I actually noticed at the beginning of this Podcast right you introduced that there’s like two brands in maker maker down right there’s them there’s maker in this diet and I mean yeah we were just discussing kind of like the Boomer and but also there’s the other thing with maker and sort of the brand is also the Complexity right that it’s like known and sort of kind of recognized as being yeah this is very difficult to understand right in in some cases and and right down to the brand it sort of helps reinforce this a bit because today there’s like two brains better actually not naturally related and so that’s Something that um I re I mean even though I came up with the you know I came up with the original Brands and I sort of uh you know I was really really sort of emotionally attached to them right but it’s it’s obvious to me like based on kind of Modern marketing science that it’s just not a good situation to be into have the brand itself contribute to sort of the complexity and kind of multi-dimensionality right when someone first gets into it right it should be as simple as possible so um so basically the Rebrand is all about Like sort of working with global top-tier branding and and user experience agencies to kind of rethink what should a maximally user-friendly and fun stable coin and sort of Finance experience for regular people look like all the way from like the brand to the website and the user experience and the Products right everything should be sort of entirely centered around how to make it easy and simple and feel safe and then also be fun and interesting to participate um roon are there any Brands just so I can almost like Envision something are there any brands that come to mind that We can start to think about like do you think about other maybe fintech apps like a public.com or or Robinhood like are those who you’re going for are you going for like a like maybe paint the picture for us a little more if you if you have something in mind uh I mean It’s hard to I think it’s hard to come with a perfect uh analogy because I think I don’t think anyone else in crypto is doing a great job either for the most part yeah with a few exceptions I guess but I don’t think there’s anything I would compare to like what Uh what I’m hoping for will be the output of this um but I mean I guess like I feel like Robin Hood might be a good example because it’s sort of you’ve got this I mean you’ve got the name itself helps explain the feeling and kind of the The Experience they want to Elicit right um of course that’s I mean Robin Hood as a brand would not be suitable for currency at all right so we need it needs to be different than that like it’s not you know because what we need is something that basically communicates stability and reliability And simplicity but then also this kind of you know this sort of the fun and the experience and and the the frontierness of of crypto right which is what especially uh make her die in endgame can deliver with all the new features that are coming I mean the one last thing I want To call out for phase one is that so because the whole kind of Cornerstone of this like the you know the fun uh um you know Financial inclusion user experience that we’re we aim to develop and you know broadly distribute right across the globe the Cornerstone of that is the the kind of The farming and the yield uh use experience right which we want to make available to you know as many people as possible all over the world uh and then I’ll just make sure to call out that um unfortunately American users will be blocked from this right but basically Everywhere else for the most part the goal is to make this available uh in a way where unlike all I mean a lot of crypto is already doing yield right and doing farming um but very often it’s like tied to like Ponzi schemes and hastily put together Dangerous uh smart contracts and so on right and so what we want to do is deliver that in a way that’s as safe as it possibly can be right which is what maker is all about and then it’s ultimately a stable coin product you’re using right it’s not some kind of Uh yeah I mean thing that’s gonna crash or make you lose all your money or so on right but we can still deliver this you know this feeling of you can choose to farm different things um it’s kind of like it feels a little bit like a game rather than boring Online banking or something like that right so the the first feature that we’ll launch will be the ability to farm um this new governance token right so as a part of the um as a part of the the new brand there’s going to be a completely brand New stable coin and a completely brand new governance token um and the reason why there’s new tokens coming is because we at you know while we have a a new brand and we’re sort of upgrading the project to this new brand and and sort of the new uh architecture And feature set we don’t want to like mess with dynamia right so like normal people or crypto people or whatever that use die and they’re happy with die they shouldn’t be Disturbed with by the the in-game stuff right and same for mkr like you shouldn’t be Feel the need you know feel forced to upgrade your tokens or do something with the tokens or worry about what’s going to happen to my money or something like that right so so die in API will like remain in place forever and that will be Sort of a you know a key uh promise of of um you know these immutable rules is that they will just stay forever as sort of to I guess you could say two uh separate independent products provided by this new kind of umbrella brand in a sense right and then there’s Also going to be um a new stable coin and a new governance token that will be completely aligned and sort of unified with this brand and have this kind of central focus on on juice experience and onboarding and and making saving and a fun experience Will the news how do you think about the new stable coin taking away from from die or is or is the new stable coin just rap die yeah so it’s it’s uh was the thing the funny thing about die is that die what we call Dye is actually like an erc20 Rapper of you could say the real die which sits internally in the right the makeup protocol accounting so this new stable coin is actually just a different wrapper of the same underlying uh thing uh but I think the question that’s more important is how we’re going to seed Liquidity for the new stable coin yeah how do you incentivize that’s what I was giving is like how do you really incentivize liquidity for the news for the new Sable coin yeah so um so die today like the kind of the Cornerstone of Dias liquidity today is Is these um you know giant smart contracts called the psms right which are these uh smart contracts that holds massive amount like billions of centralized stable coins uh that allow people to swap their die one to one with UCC and gusd and usdp right and uh So that that provides the kind of I mean what that does is it provides a lot of it is arbitrage opportunity that ensures that this there’s arbitrages that then trade against the psms and then they sort of uh basically um enforce the pack out in the marketplace And so and this is actually also in beta launch we’re also going to launch the first version of what we call the allocation system which is kind of like the new uh mechanism that will eventually fully replace uh the old Vault system like the native wall system or like the old School sort of the CDP system basically that’ll actually over time eventually not in the first phase but eventually will be fully deprecated as a feature of the core system to be replaced by this thing called allocation system and so what the allocation system is is this kind of Um it’s almost like an it’s kind of like a paralyzed well a set of parallelized intermediaries that generate dye directly from the mega protocol and then they sort of go out and allocate it into the marketplace so um so the new stable coin will have uh will sort of take over the liquidity That current is sitting in the psms but the big difference is that instead of being um you know instead of just like sitting in a smart contract where Arbitrage is then trade against it and then Arbitrage against unit swap or whatever the allocation system will inject that liquidity straight out on for instance Unit Swap and other places so so um so my expectation is that right from the moment the new stable coin launches it will be like vastly more liquid from the point of view of the average user because all that liquidity that right now sitting there so hidden away in smart contracts Really only reachable by by meal Bots and arbitrages that’ll instead be sitting out on the um you know out on the decentralized exchanges in the order books uh and and for the and that means that for the regular user they’re gonna likely pay a lower spread for instance and also on They’ll have access to liquidity and more exchanges got it okay that makes a lot of sense what about um maybe walk us into phase two yeah that’s phase one so that was phase one um so in phase two that’s like the big that’s like the full launch Um and the full launch is all about subdials one of the key roles that the subdas have is to you know sort of take over most of the complexity and most of the decision-making uh responsibility that maker governance has today so it’s kind of like yeah it’s like maker breaking itself into many Different or rather sort of breaking off multiple independent uh unique dials that then take over a lot of the responsibility that currently has done top down my maker call but instead will be done by these independent subunits and then make a call will be like like Very very rigid a lot less flexible than it is today with a lot less kind of possibility for change then that has been possible in the past and make a call but the sub-dials will be the exact opposite so they’ll be like way more flexible and way more like fast moving And experimental and Innovative and growth focused and on top of that they’ll have this focus on like culture and you know memes and marketing and narrative and all the stuff that maker kind of just like failed badly at right because it was just like too slow moving and two sort Of never was it was never built around that as a core pillar right where the sub-dials are kind of explicitly all about try to tap into the fact that there are many many different demographics in crypto and you can appeal to each differently right so yeah those were launched in the full launch And that’s kind of when I think you know I mean if we execute everything correctly and we don’t drop the ball on this that’s gonna like you know signal a new era of D5 and crypto I think right because it will be basically the simultaneous launch of six uh fully decentralized Sort of bond decentralized dials right that will you know will actually embody like the true meaning of a fair launch because the only way their tokens will be distributed will be through farming um and it will be like completely known in advance and it’ll be completely transparent around like Who’s getting the tokens how are they getting distributed what’s the risk for farming them right and it’s available to the holders of the new stable coin so maximally distribution I’m curious um I think the mechanism sounds um like I think it’s intuitive you did mention your crypto is an attention game When I hear you say You’re Gonna launch six different sub-dials I am worried about how you capture attention and the retention of that attention how do you think about all that yeah so I I mean and I guess you’re you mean like um ideally what we want to see is this like Massive community building around this updates right and a big splash and a big a big influx of attention um but actually think that I mean the kind of the tokenomics and the the plan around the rollup is is kind of built around that instead of being like You know a crazy sort of Thunderclap right from the the second it starts it’s a little bit more like a kind of you know a step-by-step thing where ideally what happens first is you get this kind of you know hardcore ins I mean I don’t call it not inside a Computer right but like Enthusiast community of people who are generally interested in like seeing I mean trying out this experiment of we can build up a new fully decentralized Dao and community and culture from the from the ground up right where we know like mathematically provably that there’s not going to be Some like Founders allocation or Foundation or whatever right it’s going to be entirely in the hands of the community from the moment it launches and there’s gonna be you know there’s multiples of them right so they can specialize in different things and that also means you can have like Self-selection right if you’ve got a bunch of people that wanna go in One Direction and focus on one thing then they don’t have to like politically struggle with people who want to do a different thing they just go to each of their own sub down right so Um my My Hope Is that what we’ll see is some relatively small but you know very aligned communities emerge of people that just find themselves or like among sort of interesting um sort of companions right where they can they can Farm These tokens together and then they can use all of these very Very powerful tools that you know the sort of the end game design and the maker makes available to them to generate real fundamental value right because ultimately while the subtitles a lot of it is about sort of what I call intangible value right it’s about like farming and getting people in and and Kind of gamification right and having fun and participating in D5 but in the end that’s just like I mean all of that is just the Chariot on top of like the underlying you know much more important uh Foundation from it for it which is fundamental value right where what the Sub-dials really do in the end is as I was saying earlier right they they kind of like split out and and take over some of these fundamental call functions that that maker governance currently runs what’s been the reaction of existing mkr holders to this proposal Uh I mean there’s been I guess you could say mixed reactions right but uh I would say overall like I mean for the most part what I’ve seen is that people who are like really deep in the in the project initially they were just like what I mean they were like as Disillusioned as as me right um and uh then uh as they’ve basically been following this and participating in it over the last I mean literally at this point I think it’s like well it’s a long time right one and a half year I think or something it’s a very long time that that This massive plan has been fleshed out through all these like public calls and you know super long documents right and feedback sessions and um you know iterations after iterations right uh I think that that um I mean of the people who are actually deep into the Who have a lot of skin in the game and who are deep into the the project at this point there’s a lot of I mean excitement and Alignment around this right then there’s also I mean there’s been people I mean well I would say more like uh funds that have been a little Bit more on the like they’re basically not they’ve never like fully kind of you know understood it right because it takes a lot of effort to understand it and it’s sort of it’s earlier in these like earlier iterative phases right where it’s a lot more like how the sausage is Made and a lot less a slogan of like you know we you know resilience and growth through subdos and AI or whatever right and um yeah I mean there’s there were some uh some uh you know um uh kind of notable political battles over it um but ultimately I mean that Kind of voter apathy prevailed right the the reality is just basically nobody uh votes and um and and so overall it’s just it’s it’s primarily me and and a few other like um key uh kind of insight like I mean deeply sort of embedded MPL holders that that uh That had like the by far the majority uh voting power what uh what are some of the risks that you think about in this new model um I mean basically the biggest risk is I mean this I mean I guess you could you could generalize it as execution risk Um but it’s maybe something I mean it really is just fundamentally that like it turns out that it’s impossible to establish any kind of um reliable resolid political dynamic in the Dow and like it just turns out a thousand possible and then maybe some kind of law Of nature in which case uh endgame isn’t going to work but no other data is going to work either I mean the thing is every single other dial that exists right now they just don’t even attempt to achieve sort of you know real decentralization and remain a complex adaptive system Right some are like more simple and don’t have to fully live up to this the reality of being a complex adaptive system um but the vast majority right I mean they just actually end up having a central team and a Central Foundation or whatever right Let me ask you what why is becoming a doubt or why is staying a Dao and being what I’d almost say like a decentralization maxi here like why is that so important to you and do you think that you could accomplish the product and the end goal of like having Billions of people using dye could you accomplish that easier if you were just a centralized company and and if you could do that what like why why be so focused on governance here uh I mean because I think centralized currency in the age of blockchains and artificial intelligence is You know the most powerful tool of slavery you can possibly imagine I mean so ultimately I mean I mean I’m in crypto since you know 2011 right reacting to the the great financial crisis and like the reality is that this is I mean that’s where it’s all going right I think that um Yeah I mean I think I mean I think Dallas and decentralized stable coins and blockchain and then things like open source AI uh these are like the two I mean these are tools that we simply cannot like we can’t just like sit around and ignore these tools because we have to Like fight for the future of how Society is fundamentally structured right and these are like this is what’s available to us you know um and uh so yeah like I think it’s really like it’s it’s the most important and most interesting challenge possible like is it actually possible to organize people In a way where that doesn’t have to be some big boss some hierarchy you know some King at the top that that runs everything and then it’s all about who knows who and who’s got the power right but instead you can actually have people self-organize in a way where they’ll Just each kind of do whatever is in their own interest but it’s an aggregate they end up doing as a whole sort of what’s equally and fairly in everybody’s interest right and even in sort of the Public’s interest and the the um you know society’s interest right How do you grapple with the idea of decentralized governance Rune with centralized collateral um and maybe that’s a that ties into this topic of real world assets and and I mean it’s become very clear that there is only there’s only massive demand for a dollar uh a dollar denominator a dollar Collateralized stable coin right and the best way to do that is with real or maybe the only way to do that is with at scale is with real world assets so on one hand you’ve got this like like I love the mission of like very decentralized governance on the other Hand you’re bringing more and more I’d almost called them like centralized forms of of collateral onto the system like how do you grapple with those two things and how do you think about that yeah so uh I think I mean and this is also what I’m hoping to accomplish So communication related to this as a part of this uh the kind of the new brand and the new way to um kind of explain what maker is right and and so I think decentralization is a kind of um you know it’s a it’s not a very useful Word at this point because it’s become very kind of loaded and and sort of uh you know it’s got a lot of baggage and it’s got a lot of sort of memes and and sort of um you know a buzzword to it right and I Think a much better word to use to sort of describe what is it we want to actually achieve right is resilience right so it’s really about like the overall kind of strength and and sort of ability for the system to resist uh I mean any other kind of um Force you could say that wants to impact it right um and yeah I’m sort of curious like um you know you say you’re going to codify certain rules a lot of people are critical governance tokens a lot of what we’ve seen in D5 farming is the people that initially form the token Are not the ones that stick around it’s pretty mercenary Capital that just moves around like maybe if you can it may not be the case here but I’m curious how you solve that problem where time and time again you see these people that don’t necessarily as you said earlier People are out for their own incentives and that’s what drives them and as soon as either the token Farm dries up or it becomes less interesting to them they quickly go to another project and jump around and there’s a lot of this mercenary capital in D5 Is that the case here and how do you kind of mitigate that behavior and activity yes I mean so again there’s like there’s a whole bunch of of kind of aspects to that challenge right but I think I mean I think the most kind of fundamental is this question of I mean sustainable economics right like if you design something like farming the wrong way then basically when you do it you like hand away a bunch of money and you’re hoping that somehow you’ll get a bunch of money back and often you don’t right and it’s just a big kind of Um it’s just a bunch of hot air right and then a bunch few people get rich and everyone else sits around with a bunch of worthless tokens right so the the end game tokenomics is designed around this principle of um value of recapture you see right so I Mean the really really basic kind of um driver of how the tokonomics works right is that when you have this new stable coin you have a bunch of different options available to you right so you can I mean basically you can Farm any of the the subject tokens that you want to Farm you can also farm this new governance token um and then the final option is um this you know new version of the die savings rate so there’d be of course rebranded right but it’s called the new savings rate right and these options are mutually exclusive uh which is really Really important in the sense that if you so if you choose to farm something then you cannot get the the savings rate of the system and so effectively what that means is um the system is saving expenses when you’re farming tokens instead and it’s ultimately that I mean you could really Reduce it down to something like what’s really happening then is you are sort of trading your you know you’re trading the yield in term in cash terms for um a yield in uh in uh you know like soft out token terms um and and the system was simply going to equilibrate around Obviously you you should always be getting a higher yield in subter tokens because they’re volatile um but it in the long run it you know it’s not so I mean it shouldn’t it wouldn’t be possible and it’s not sustainable if like to get some kind of crazy high Yield in subter tokens right it just doesn’t it’s not economically possible to to provide yields that are like above market right because the Market’s going to find a way to kind of close that Gap um so uh so yeah I mean that’s really the fundamental thing right because then what that means is You’re you’re ultimately paying in right in the sense that you are um like you’re letting the system uh keep the yield in cash terms and so that value that builds up inside the system then you know is used to maintain the value of the token in the long run right so that that That um I mean and it’s done it does that through this tokonomics um where basically uh you know the subtap tokens they just continuously like they’re sort of they’re basically continuously uh funnel value to the maker like to sort of make a call by farming the Tokens to die holders right and also to to Imperials or rather sorry new stable card holders and new governance term holders um but then make a call also continuously funnels value to um the subtle token holders initially is this like relatively crude fixed setup where um the the internal treasuries of the Sub-dials receive the equivalent of 333 mkr per year just like a sort of a subsidy that just it gives them a bunch of cash denominated in MPR right so if their value of Empire goes up then the subdial gets more money for its Treasury and then on top of that there is this Like farming uh functionality of also the subject service this is kind of like a principle that I’ve learned right then in D5 with a token you always got to be able to do something with a token right so the thing you can do with sub-out Tokens is you can use them to farm these new governance tokens and this is also the equivalent of 333 MPR that you’ll be able to farm per year with each of these sub-dub tools um and then because as the subnet tokens are distributed maker is able to capture That value because you’re not getting the the savings rate uh that means that that value then circuits was stored up inside the NPR Circle essentially right and then you get it delivered back on this sort of linear sort of you know um paste uh funnel of value back and forth basically Maybe you can take us into uh stages four and five here right so State uh or phases four and five phase one was the beta launch which is kind of this focus on establishing the unified brand phase two is the subdow launch so we’ve got these couple different I think it was You said five or six I think six different sub devs maybe take us into phases three and four um and I’m combining both of those because they’re both related to governance right so maybe yeah if you could walk us through that that’d be great yeah so once we’ve established the subdials Which kind of I mean yes like the setting off kind of the growth and the expansion of the ecosystem right uh then yeah like then the next focus is consolidating the governance and kind of like getting ready for like uh having the system actually be able to run itself fully decentralized Uh permanently right and so the first and most important well I don’t know but the first step that’s like a prerequisite that needs to be in place before we can really sort of lock things down fully is um yeah it’s like getting the governance uh kind of getting the governance into this Um decentralized equilibrium which is one of the key characteristics of the decentralized equilibrium is that Outsiders kind of peripheral participants right even like stable coin holders and also just like small scale uh token holders they need to sort of be able to Be an Effective check on the Much more powerful insiders and the whales and the you know Master politicians and bureaucrats and and power Brokers in the system right basically everyone needs to be held to the rules no matter what and it must be impossible for someone to kind of like you know Flushed Away out of being held Accountable to the rules right and they and that and then I mean yeah we were talking about all this like thing about like these codified rules and all this stuff right but so what phase three is all about is basically adding artificial intelligence to the mix to specifically play the very yeah Specific role of um solving the the um the complexity and information asymmetry that normally exists in a down right so today in maker it’s like yeah there’s like 30 people that knows how everything works and then there’s like thousands of people that just I mean I mean they just they don’t Realistically have a way to like figure out whether the rules are being followed or not right in terms of like the internal power dynamics and governance Dynamics and so on right so if like the system today or whatever a year ago was like randomly like slippery slurbing towards uh centralization and power Consolidation it would be hard for someone to know before like it’s already too late right and so very fundamentally that’s what this like AI uh these AI systems are about it’s basically to be able for for someone to like like for anyone to be able to tell are the rules currently being followed Or not and if they’re not being followed or like if there’s risks and sort of inconsistencies you know it could be something like uh you know nepotism or kind of like corruption in terms of somebody paying themselves out of a budget or something like that’ll be very easy to discover if You have AI That’s trained and optimized for kind of like you know understanding the rules and then comparing the reports and the data that’s being um surfaced by by the the processes of governance um and then what that means is it can sort of like alert someone on the Outside to like okay there’s there’s some group or some person that is not that has some I mean that is not uh you know publishing the information they’re supposed to publish and somehow all the other checks and balances that were supposed to stop them from doing that they Haven’t been able to you know they’re not working and and that’s the kind of situation that that then calls for I mean the sort of the regular holders to sort of rise up right and basically you know make some kind of significant change uh that that that you know that That modifies the the um the balance of power like uh you know whatever is wrong with the status quo needs to be solved in that kind of situation and if it doesn’t get solved then what’s going to happen is you’re having like a real governance failure right where you’re Going to have centralization occur um and the the kind of like the ultimate um uh kind of uh consequence of this kind of risk is that the whole system shuts down right because you in the end you have minority protection uh because what could happen is if somebody manages to really consolidate Power to a point where they get central control you know they could take the collateral if you don’t have mechanisms in place to to protect from that right so to to sort of never even go down the path at all we need these very powerful AI tools that can help Outsiders You know like kind of make sure everything is as it should be right and and once you have that resilience that stability that yeah when the when things are happening we can sort of follow along and we can ensure that the rules are followed then you can kind of crank up the the Pace right you can parallelize more things you can do more stuff right you can take multiple bets because you don’t have to worry about kind of as these things happen then you know something is gonna something dangerous is gonna happen to the underlying uh uh like power dynamic or balance of Power on the system we’re coming up on time here so I want to there’s there’s four there’s two more phases right phase four and phase five maybe you could just give like 30 second overviews on each of those just I know that’s a tough thing to do we’ll put a Link to all the information that you that you’ve already written pretty extensively about so people can read it if they have more questions because I have a few other maybe like second order impact questions from this so maybe if you could give a couple of 30 second Overviews on phases four and five and then we can get into some details that I have yeah absolutely so phase four is then uh kind of yeah well it’s called governance participation rewards it’s sort of the headline of it right so this is the point where okay we’ve got the AI Tools in place which means now the governance Dynamic is able to sort of uh self-police it’s equilibrium right it’s decentralized equilibrium right so like sort of you can actually have the systems or run on autopilot and if the autopilot I mean sort of like run itself quote unquote right and if it Starts uh kind of going off the tracks you’ll be able to know and people will have the means to step in because the AI tools will help them to identify what’s wrong and how do you fix it right and so phase four is then putting in place uh basically rewards for participating in Governance um which solves the problem of voter apathy because now you get paid to vote right basically when when we when phase four starts but paying people to vote is itself like super dangerous unless you’ve got all these like preceding things in place right you’ve got the Rules in place and they’re solid and immutable and then you’ve got the AI Tools in place that makes it very easy to understand or like are these delegates and these kind of insiders that have you know that are that are kind of like leveraging all of this paid incentivized voting power Are they growing off the tracks and if that’s the case how do we deal with it when they’ve got so much power right because that’s kind of I mean once you pay people to vote you create this massive amount of kind of somewhat unaccountable uh governance power in the System right because most people who then vote they’re not doing it because they actually care about voting they’re doing it mostly because they care about getting paid right so yeah so all the proceeding phases kind of allow that to be done safely and then I mean actually To some extent the system is is uh I mean you’re very close to have the system being fully done uh phase five is then uh I mean it’s by far the largest kind of phase of all but it doesn’t in some sense it doesn’t introduce anything new it’s simply uh then kind of Re-architects and redesigns and re-implements everything from the bottom up in the most efficient and future-proof possible state which is on its own sort of um special purpose blockchain and only you could say new feature that then actually ends up being like it’s the biggest feature of all but it’s so I Don’t know like it’s so at kind of um Advanced or I don’t know what to call it like it’s it’s so specific why this feature matters that most people they don’t even know it’s a feature right but this is basically this like shutdown mechanism I was talking about earlier This kind of like final escalation uh uh kind of option that’s available in the governance of the system right which today it’s something called emergency shutdown that allows the minority um the minority of mpls today can like shut down the maker system uh even if they don’t have a majority of the voting Power and they can do that to them like prevent someone from like taking central control and fully stealing all the money in the system or centralizing it and the big problem is like such a shutdown would be absolutely disastrous in the way that it’s it’s built today and so With the new blockchain instead of doing a shutdown you can do a hard Fork and that means that the system can recover from even the worst case well rather many of the worst case scenarios in terms of um uh kind of like governance attack edge cases which is not the case today And basically it’s not fully sustainable the the the power Dynamic of today where once you’ve got uh uh kind of a sovereign blockchain that can hard Fork by itself then you you’ve got something that is I mean that reaches a point where like now it’s it’s a fully sustainable design That can sort of uh last through the the ages roon what are you optimizing for here the when you talk about the end game like what okay so when you shared your story over the last eight years it felt like every like maybe two or three years Ago you tried to leave maker or like take a step back from maker um and then you’re like ah no no the system’s not set up yet for me to do that I need to jump back in are you optimizing for like a part of this feels like you’re Optimizing for you being able to leave maker is that a fair thing is that yes yeah I mean that’s always been like the litmus test of a doubt right I mean it’s pointless if I can’t leave right so yeah you could say that’s like I mean but It’s not just like I mean of course I want to to I mean leave and and do other things and relax and so on but I mean much more importantly it’s just it’s like it’s the fundamental test of whether the thing works or not right Let me can I push back on the so here’s the counter take to all of this so I I really like like the grand ambition and everything that you’re working towards and it’s clear that you’ve put a ridiculous amount of time into thinking about this the counter take um Would be that this completely wrecks dying maker and that AI tools can’t paper over governance issues and that you’re blocking U.S users um from participating but a lot of the Assets in terms of the real world assets are actually in the U.S financial system what how would you If that if I have a feeling as the end game continues to get rolled out and built those will be kind of the three buckets of pushback how do you think about those three buckets well I mean so like Dynam KR isn’t going to change right so even if the new features Don’t have the kind of the the um like as much of a and let’s call it immediate impact as as I definitely expect they have right then they’re not really gonna alter sort of the fundamental um like basic features of Dynam KR basically like what they’re going to do Is they’re going to introduce this kind of future-proofed and sustainable self-organizing system right that’s going to allow this I mean there’s definitely sort of thing I mean there’s this sort of you could call it a theoretical underpinning that would allow governance to run itself and not require whales to vote as they do Today right and then if that’s the only thing it achieves then and die in NPR just stays the way they are but now they don’t rely on whales anymore then I think that’s by itself also success right and then as it relates to like real assets and regulation I mean basically Um I mean it’s a it’s the number one challenge that like any crypto project that cares about success and adoption and growth and so on uh it’s grappling with and should be grappling with right and it’s I mean it’s a it’s very hard like it that’s always been like it’s always been very Difficult and it’s always been very kind of ever-changing right um and currently we think we have like a good solution right of how to navigate Global regulation uh but the reality is it’s going to change over time and sort of having that I mean one of the key things that um I mean one of the I mean that’s one of sort of the things that endgame really optimizes for right and and sort of buckets under resilience right this is a core component of resilience is sort of adaptability to um to like the regulatory landscape right in the regulatory reality and I Mean one of the things that also does kind of optimize for and and make possible is this you know what used to be called The Phoenix stance and just to be sort of a meme around it game right that that there is a possibility that at Some point you have to uh despite how you know costly and and devastating would be you have to completely untether from the real world right and like drop the the US dollar pack and all of that um and the mechanism for sort of how to detect when that is required and then Sort of Step by Step moving in that direction they’re actually built into the rule sets um so that they cut that can sort of dynamically occur right just like something like the US dollar hyperinflates and just stops being the reserve currency kind of the ability to adapt to that is Also something that has to be kind of codified into the system right because it like these core rules have to you know be able to carry the system forever essentially we’re in anything else I mean I feel like we could go on for a long time here but I know we’re coming Up on time anything uh anything else that you just feel is really pressing and that you feel like we we haven’t discussed but that folks need to know uh yeah I mean I think actually there’s a there’s a good sort of rounding of the I guess the most interesting more Immediate uh topics to cover I mean I think one thing that’s I want to maybe talk a little bit about is this thing called the allocation system so we were touching upon that a little bit we’re like this is how there’s going to be lots of liquidity for the new stablecoin Right as it launches right but what’s really exciting about that is how that migrates like how the responsibility for that system it’s going to sit with the type of subdial called the allocator dial and these allocator dials will then basically compete with each other to kind of wield the economic power of of Uh you know make a call and the die collateral portfolio and I’m really excited about like all the possibilities like all the business opportunities all the possibilities all the the jobs basically that will be created out of companies and hackers and other tiles and so on sort of like Coming with all their little like all these little building blocks you can build into to allocator dials that that will sort of funnel die and and new stable to the most optimal places where you can sort of put them right so it’s kind of like it’s like today it’s a very Inefficient version of that is happening where you’ve got arbitrages like locking in ethereum and then borrowing super cheaply from from maker and then going out and doing stuff with it in the ecosystem and in the future it’ll be you know the ecosystem itself organically and sort of competitively Kind of just evolving and expanding and reaching out and finding these economically optimal places to distribute the the stable hunts too and then because it’s directly Distributing there it’s not letting Arbitrage is doing the work right it’s going to capture a lot of that value and kind of Bring it back into the corporate system and then that’s gonna directly then affect things like the savings rate the system can offer and by affecting the savings rate the system however it’s going to like Rebel through things like the farming yield and and sort of all the efficiency of the system right so It’s like the system gets a lot more efficient and it’s gonna deliver that efficiency to users and to ecosystem participants and contributors and basically take it away from like Mev Bots and arbitrages huh very cool I mean this is basically just a there are product updates here but this Is basically a massive budget allocation problem that you’re trying to solve here um and it’s yeah it’s really impressive so I’m I I think Santi and I are rooting for you ruin uh you got a you got a big problem at hand uh and yeah this is a budget Allocation problem that you’re trying to solve but really the next couple years it seems like are just it’s about the execution so it’ll be fun to see uh how things go absolutely will be fun yeah man thank you we’ll talk to you soon then thanks for coming on this is helpful thank you Thank you Today we are joined by Rune Christensen to discuss MakerDAO’s Endgame.The Endgame is MakerDAO’s roadmap to create the world’s most widely used stablecoin.We discuss how Maker has evolved since 2015, MKR’s underperformance, the 5 phases of the Endgame, what could go wrong and more! – – Timestamps: 00:00 MakerDAO’s History: From Creation to Today 08:51 Codifying Rules to Scale 19:36 MKR’s Underperformance vs DAI’s Growth 24:36 Quicknode 26:25 Phase 1: Rebranding, New Tokens, Farming 37:37 Phase 2: SubDAOs, RWA Collateral & Tokenomics 55:59 Phase 3: Implementing AI 01:01:20 Phase 4 & 5: Voting Rewards and a Special Purpose Blockchain 01:05:40 The Bear Case 01:10:10 Allocator DAOs and Internalizing Value – – Follow Rune: https://twitter.com/RuneKek Follow Jason: https://twitter.com/JasonYanowitz Follow Santi: https://twitter.com/santiagoroel Follow Empire: https://twitter.com/theempirepod Subscribe on YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/4fdhhb2j Subscribe on Apple: https://tinyurl.com/mv4frfv7 Subscribe on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/wbaypprw Get top market insights and the latest in crypto news.
Subscribe to Blockworks Daily Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/ – – This episode is brought to you by Quicknode.QuickNode is an end-to-end blockchain developer platform that makes building Web3 apps easy.Go to QuickNode.com and use code Empire for a free month on their feature-packed Build Plan! – – Resources The Endgame Plan parts 1&2 (May 2022) https://forum.makerdao.com/t/the-endgame-plan-parts-1-2/15456 The 5 phases of Endgame (May 2023) https://forum.makerdao.com/t/the-5-phases-of-endgame/20830 – – Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens.This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice.Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.
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