And BRC 20 BTC Civil War featuring emergent reasons cheap lighting and imaginary username today is Sunday the 14th of May 2023 I am your host Jeremy same as always jet is doing the producing and our guests today come from across the bch ecosystem they’ve all been frequent Attendees of the show before so I’m just going to ask them to give their little one-line quick introduction to what they do in the scene and for anybody who’s curious for the full story they can check back to those past episodes so people ending your first up what are you Doing Bitcoin cash uh at some reason one sentence I do a lot of different things um yeah check out the previous episodes you’ll figure it out there you go brilliant imagine raisins yeah my first thing to say is uh watch out Pancho I’m I’m watching the the chat here but um Yeah I’m John emergent reasons uh one of the co-founders of General protocols we take uh Bitcoin cash development and the future of Bitcoin cash very seriously and uh yeah we’re doing everything we can to make it into a money system that can be the foundation for uh an independent uh Economy and commerce imaginary uh I do math for General protocol in order to afford rent uh and some food sometimes and go around bch in general to make sure things don’t blow up well I mean at least don’t blow up too horribly but yeah that’s basically what I do and Welcome also to everyone in the chat killer triple 098 welcome to the stream and Christy Christy bomb my classmate and you’re hard to see um yeah welcome also to all the new twitch Chatters and thank you to bitcoin cash TV for giving us a solid raid so Obviously today being the 14th of May the Bitcoin cash Network upgrade to cash tokens is tomorrow but I don’t want to do a big segment on this show about that because everybody can tune into the live stream tomorrow which will be at midday UTC I’m co-hosting that with mini Satoshi and all the details and information will be there and we’ve also covered it you know a ton in all the previous episodes so we’re not going into that today but I did promise uh that we would talk about the bch guru which I rugged them on the last episode And I said I I said we were going to talk about them and then we didn’t so they actually took it in pretty humor so I’m making up for it today and then we also promised that we would get into all of the ordinals and brc20 and everything Like that so that’s what this episode is going to be covering but first of all we have the price as always bch versus ICP uh this week uh internet computer we flipped them and then they re-flipped us and so we’re battling it out for rank 28 on the coin market cap rankings Yeah yeah it is I was hoping to say that we’d flip them and they would go and see later ICP but then they fought back later in the week so uh the contention continues over which is the true best cryptocurrency I have no idea there are so many Juggalos it’s just so surprising There’s so many Juggalos Bitcoin cash today is 114 dollars uh in USD which is flat it’s two one BTC Buys 234.77 bth so the ratio has improved there slightly for us and one ethereum uh buys 15.7 Bitcoin cash so also up slightly there obviously from the old Time lows but we have improved a little bit and that will actually come into the discussion I think and be relevant uh with regards to everything that’s been going on on BTC as to whether or not the tides may be turning does anybody want to have a quick word about the markets And about speculation perhaps good chance to chill stabilizing on bch ball or uh always yeah if you’re looking for stability go for it go to app.bchbold.com and it’s literally there for you and literally paying you to to save money in USD or gold bars or whatever you want to so yeah absolutely Um this is not Financial advice not Financial advice at all no never really uh just just an informational uh announcement I guess you could say I actually have a contract on for a stabilized at I think 119 so I’m looking in the money and I got paid a premium to Do it so right right yeah first first thing that we need to get into so the bch guru so there’s been a bit of um excitement about this in the scene I guess you could say and we’re going to start with the announcement music video That they made jet can hold that up and uh play that hey Foreign To the Moon foreign All right cut it so there we have the marketing video so for those who are listening to the audio stream the video is on the left side it’s got the lyrics that you were hearing from this Bitcoin cash rap and then on the right side it has a sort of Montage of the nfts of these gurus like I don’t know how to how do you describe the old men sitting down with all the different uh combinations like of crypto punks or board Apes this sort of generative art where there’s a particular theme and then every individual one is a variation on the Theme so page Guru is holding a coin which is sometimes the Bitcoin cash uh logo slash coin and then sometimes it’s Monero or Avalanche or BTC and then the gurus obviously have all different art design Styles different hats different accessories different backgrounds different clothing styles or whatever But you can tell that they’re all sort of part of a series so this project got announced and the I want to be very clear about this developers are Anonymous and so far all they’ve developed developed or delivered is some flashy looking stuff so I think everybody should don’t trust and verify At this stage but that said this was actually a very cool looking project and it doesn’t seem like the typical scam that you could whip up uh overnight necessarily obviously all the lyrics sort of check out in terms of if it was a scam they’ve at least done their Research on the Bitcoin cash to find out what would appeal to the community and they’ve written on their site that the the game plan essentially here is to do a 10 000 nft mint so similar to um crypto punks or board apes or a lot of those other series 10 000 just has Become the industry standard number and then it seems like there’s going to be a prediction game based on that so perhaps the owners of different nfts you’ll need to buy a a bch guru in order to participate in this game where you can compete against someone else like I Might have a number 23 and John might have number 57 and so then we can make a bet on chain sort of similar to bch Bull as to the price of Dogecoin is going to be 2x in a year’s time and then we’re both locking in a bunch of money Via some mechanism and then at the end of the day whatever the price is then pays out to whoever wins that’s that’s there’s not 100 explained but that seems to be the idea and I think that’s a super cool idea because obviously people love gambling I was looking back at one Of the old episodes where we covered uh Satoshi pyramid on bch some people didn’t really like but I loved that this is similar uh similar same same but different so I love things that uh take advantage of crypto’s speculative nature because it gets people interested in the Chain uh and then they you know it’s like they come for that and then they stay for the rest of the ecosystem so I love that aspect of it obviously a decentralized um you know uh market and and game is cool it’s also sort of like an early prediction Market implementation going there and I can also see how it would very easily expand to you can have a super cool leaderboard of which gurus had made the best predictions and who would defeated who in a bracket and all of that obviously with the super cool art and it Then it just becomes this open Community game that people are coming into and you have to you have to buy a guru to play to be part of the competition so that would set a law on the actual value of having one and for if it became a thing In the broader crypto ecosystem that having one of these gurus and making Unchained bets that were provable became the standard for having your Shield Channel where you said oh follow my trading system I’ll make 10 million dollars and people say well where’s your bch grew why don’t you just rank up on That and prove that prove that you are actually the best that would be perfect so I I’m actually very excited about this and the mint uh the first they’ve got their mint in several stages but the first mint is supposedly scheduled for Monday the 29th of May so people can Mark that in their calendars and it’s going to be 0.1 bch I believe or a bch guru so emerging reasons talk me through what do you think about this project you seemed more excited than I would have expected from your usual skepticism of anonymous devs and so on Yeah no I’m not uh skeptical of anonymous devs I’m skeptical of people who have no uh uh no reputation and haven’t proved anything haven’t done any proof of work uh that’s what I’m skeptical of there’s plenty of anonymous people who are amazing um yeah but on this one I happen to know Because uh not not everything about them but I know enough just to see that they have been doing Dev work in bch for a while and they obviously know what they’re doing they got into talks with us about using the price oracles which is amazing right because this will be The second application for the second big applications they’re small ones that are using the price oracles which uh price circles having to use price Oracle is not a great thing in the first place but it’s just a reflection of you know things are moving ahead people are actually making use of things and Building utility building layers so I love having somebody come in who knows what they’re doing who wants to use the the price oracles um like you said uh I suspect that eventually they want to do something along the lines of prediction markets but that’s that’s further off it’s hard To say all the stuff with cash tokens right is just yet to to be explored even it’s completely unexplored territory still yeah um yeah I don’t know so from from what I have seen and from the talks that I have had with them I’m I’m very excited about It yeah yeah so I can understand why it was surprising that I was excited when they first came out but yeah what sort of talk yeah I haven’t had any yellow flags or red flags about it yeah okay on telegram yeah but uh like I’m the first One to pick out red flags and yellow flags and I haven’t picked out any yet but but yeah like you said you absolutely everybody needs to uh do some due diligence and actually on that point uh cheap lightning has something for you I think yes uh yeah so I I’m probably more skeptical uh because I haven’t talked to any of these people um and so I definitely advise caution uh but uh yeah I I wrote a post a while ago and read.cash about mercenaries and grifters and and uh John has been been pushing me to expand that to what about Just scams how do you find scams and of course during the SPCA day there was a plethora of scams and every day there’s some new scam and they got pretty pretty easy to pick out uh certain common threads amongst them so I wrote another new post it’s on my read.cash but uh To make it more simple it’s uh iafs dot cache which of course stands for it’s a [ __ ] scam uh if I can scam so iafs.cash and it’s just a checklist that you can go through to see if if there are some major yellow and or red flags about a particular project and there’s About 20 points there I think so obviously you know with any project there’s going to be some things that people are are better at doing than others um and if the fact that the the team of of this project is anonymous is is a you Know a red flag for you that’s fine uh but I go through the list and see if there are other red flags as well so um do do they do they promise that they’re going to give 50 of of their income to to Starving Children in in Canada uh or or whatever uh you know so just uh be careful about uh you know promises that they probably aren’t going to deliver I’m not saying that they have but uh you know just find out for yourself if that’s the case um yeah there you go and I recommend uh People start to use this uh you know pop it open and if there’s a new project you know look for a copy pasta somewhere where somebody’s taking this uh this list and filled it out to some degree right like just having the uh a culture of of due diligence will be will be Fantastic so I hope people make use of it taking a look at this list uh obviously I’m just saying for the first time here what I think I’m sure we can adapt and expand this like it would actually it might sound obvious uh to say something like Do they prefer to move all discussion to DMS yes no but I can imagine people would find this and maybe not know well what what do you mean what it is yes a good sign or is no a good sign right and so perhaps having some explanations Underneath these that go into like okay scan you know scammers are likely to want to discuss in DMS because in public forums they can more easily be called out and uh by other people so isolating their target makes them more vulnerable to being manipulated and talked into something that they don’t understand or Are handing over Bitcoin cash or whatever right so I think I’m sure we can build and expand on this it would be great as a like a forum on a site where you could just fill it out quickly quickly yeah and has explanations like you said and everything yeah gotta start Somewhere it’s a good starting point for uh due diligence culture yes but I I think it’s cool cool article this is an excellent uh move in the right direction I might have to add this to the Bitcoin cash podcast FAQs I’ve got a section on scams there but I’m Mostly just refer to other people like coffee dealer because I don’t have time to chase chase them all around all right yeah so but your original question for me personally I uh I I do try to do due diligence I’m a student of cheap lightning and I’m trying to learn how to Do due diligence and I haven’t picked out uh in yellow red flags and like you said I use I’m quick to to pick out uh stuffiness so uh yeah it seems all right to me so far do you have any thoughts on the bch guru uh me Um so he doesn’t get to have an opinion so uh Justin so just in case a million reasons is in on the scam uh I’m going to I’m going to offer something a bit more cynical um so uh look at it look at the display um they are this guys are actually doing A lot of pioneering work on a very novel system which is Cash tokens so just the nft minting mechanism and all takes a lot of work to set up and they’re the first guys to do this so it’ll and I mean and everyone and also everyone knows how poor the bch people are Already so um it is a very high effort very low return uh thing for them to do so uh even if they even if you are extremely cynical and think that they will turn out to be your scam um just think of it as a just think of It as a donation to The PCH ecosystem it is well worth it um yeah and it with all that said it will be pretty ludicrous for people to scam like this in this specific way there are much better opportunities so yeah maybe I mean I I agree with you I think One of the things that’s quite important to note about the current state of bch is that following all of the uh Civil Wars and splits and everything with xcc you know the final was sort of at the end of 2020 so I started this podcast in 2021 because I thought okay the ship Would turn around and even with smart bch then also having problems by and large I feel like mostly things have turned around right but at the same time the the hype hasn’t quite hit yet the story isn’t really out there yet the bch is kicking off and then it’s all kind of Starting to come together right so what that means is that we’re at this with the cash tokens upgrade as well too where this inflection point where people who are going to be in ahead of the trend can kind of get in now and start building their projects and whatever and They’re going to have a huge advantage over people coming in later because like you’re saying there might be more work to do the first ever large nft mint on bitcoin cash but as I’ve explained in the show before the process of doing that work is also what makes you an Expert it teaches you how it works it gives you the chance to be the one setting the industry standards you know you become more involved in the core details of what’s happening and so then as everyone else comes in it might be easier in quotation marks for them Because some already tools or patterns or the community is already familiar with how things are done or there’s more going on but on the other hand it’s like everything entrepreneurial you know the risk is sort of proportionate to the reward so if you’re in early before Everyone else and you have to do the hard work well you get paid out once everybody else comes in and starts you know copying what you’re doing or um you know their hype and stuff is adding on to your project which already has momentum so in that way I think the community should Be not uh you know we should still be scam reverse obviously but should not be surprised to find projects like this start to pop up they will need to prove themselves over time and with work but the I I encourage everyone not to be too cynical that anybody coming into bch is Just grifting because now is actually a fantastic time to do so so there will be at least some good actors that that that do that yeah and uh the um uh I I think it it is uh the usual rules apply where uh the easier all this becomes the more Grifters you can expect uh that comes out of this right now it is really difficult so uh there should be a lot less uh if any but that will also be a sign of success important to note though once there’s a lot of grifters coming in that’s not a Good thing in terms of having grifters but on the reality is that grifters are inevitable and one thing that can be said for them is that they’re good at finding where the money is and so if there’s a lot of money there’s a lot of action there’s a lot of activity there’s A lot of new users coming to bitcoin cash well they will kind of come along for the ride one of the things I’ve heard uh people talking about uh like Mark thousand I think it talks about it uh often is that uh rifters or scammers Is a sign of a real thing because by definition there is no such thing as a scam that doesn’t have a core to it right if you’re trying to fake something there has to be something to fake otherwise it wouldn’t happen in the first place so there is some real value Going on and then the grifting is kind of at the at the periphery but obviously as that that core expands it becomes easier for the community to develop known trusted links among among things and the kind of cream Rises to the crop over time with Lindy and uh with proof Of work right so uh that that would be very important but I think we should all be aware of uh the fact that we’re going to be seeing both more scams and more actual real projects really start to flood into the scene over the next 12 months It’s also worth saying I think that uh we having seen you know the Ico uh boom which was just I mean you have to be honest that it was just a lot of grifting going on there a vast majority grouping going on right there was not Very very very few real Dows or anything even today there’s Ricky so we have to also I think hold ourselves to a higher standard that we’ve seen something so we should have learned something from it too so hopefully we will and hopefully we’ll uh get off to a better start Yeah absolutely but I’m looking forward to this uh game coming out I will say at this stage I am planning to Mint maybe you know one to three maybe up to five of the initial gurus I actually I like the art quite a lot I’ve not really had Or been involved in much nft based stuff before I never really got to hype about it but I like the idea of it being involved in the predictions game because I can just see that absolutely kicking off and I also got to say I like the approach of the project In terms of being kind of open to other coins like firstly they’ve called it bch Guru so bch’s front center in the name and you couldn’t do this on any other chain well maybe you could but with a lot of caveats right bch is quite uniquely suited to it but one of the Things that they have notably done is in the artworks they’ve made them like I said there’s the bch coin and then there’s the XMR and Litecoin and Dogecoin there’s a few other coins the ma and the major you know some of the less scammy ones basically some of the real legitimate projects in The scene they haven’t just gone with every coin to try and get Cloud although I think they did have Ripple maybe which I was like why’d you guys do that but yeah it better yeah that’s right where’s internet computer internet computer on PCH right now but the point is that I like that They’re they’re getting the idea firstly price speculation is something that happens in every coin so it’s a a good thing to appeal across chains and then secondly also trying to create a bit of that inclusivity for people who might be on those other chains you think oh well I Might check this out or at least feel a bit more favorable to it I think that’s also very smart and helpful for us if they don’t have ICP I’m not going to buy any though so yeah first yeah that’s right exactly exactly the rate is on red red dress They haven’t they haven’t uh announced the the full Min you know we haven’t seen the full 10 000 set so you still still have time to go back and quickly just generate up some new artworks throw out a few of the uh like a refund if I Don’t get if I don’t get bch on mine I’m going to want a refund well you’re not going to want a refund you’re gonna have to trade it exactly that’s exactly the free market always set to Value right here right let’s see one piece of value There yeah maybe the bch ones will be the rare ones that will be just worse I’ll be the collector of ones all the poor other character John Smith junk the junk coins we’ll see maybe there’ll be a rating of who knows we see the same thing with bch Bull it’s funny right because there’s there’s some some positions right obviously again this isn’t financial advice but you see some positions where you’re like logically um you might want to go short on this like but when it comes to BTC it’s like radioactive and nobody takes it it’s just sitting there nobody will Take the BTC shorts against uh bch but nobody will touch it everybody’s long well the history is versus BTC really okay I mean I um I’ve considered doing a bch reward which is quite an ironic thing right that if the BTC goes up against bch I end up with more Bch which is actually pretty pretty cool because I I sort of felt like right that way it’s like hedging your bets that way you can’t lose but all these maximalists and chilling and whatever garbage they’re up to whatever hype they create in their uh failing Fork then I will Benefit and if I lose well then I still win because bch is obviously going up so right yeah I know it’s been always the the irony the hidden irony of bch bull naming right because it’s like oh that’s only if bch goes up and it’s like no it Goes up or it goes down and bch wins either way because you’re using bch to do it right yeah yeah yeah okay all right that’s enough uh on the sly chilling and bch Guru you got your shout outs as well too so apologies that it Was a week late but I’m sure that could have made up for it okay so the main topic that I wanted to get into with our expert panel here today was the ordinals and brc20 so the first point uh to this is that in February it was covered on this show on episode 71 with uh some of the same guests so if you’re not um up to date with all of what this is about my first suggestion is just pause this episode now and go back and listen to episode 71 because I don’t want to recover everything that we already Covered uh but then we’re gonna so the conversation has since moved on it’s now three months later and a ton has happened in that time so that’s what we’re mostly going to be covering we’re not going to be re redoing everything that was already mentioned in episode 71 So pause the episode and go catch up with that if you’re interested and or need the backstory but the summary is that in late January a Taproot exploit on PCC allowed the creation of in so-called inscriptions these nfts and data storage onto the BTC chain now some of the predictions I re-watched this Episode in preparation and some of the things that were discussed actually was was quite interesting in terms of saying like oh well we don’t know whether it’s a fad and it’s going to die off or if it’s going to explode right well what happened was that it kind of ticked Along at a moderate Pace until just a couple of weeks ago or a little bit more than a week certainly the basically developers who have essentially defected from Bitcoin SV onto b2c they jumped on a trend where somebody who I don’t want to say was one Of these bsv dads but somebody created a thing called BRC 20 tokens which was the idea that since you can have arbitrary data in these transactions you could also have tokens like on every other like on erc20 hence it’s uh brc20 Bitcoin request for comment 20 uh tokens And that created an explosion of price because a speculative Mania started over minting these tokens on BTC which is seen as the most pristine the most secure and obviously the oldest name in crypto particularly by the uninformed sort of mass and there was a whole lot of people who were more interested in Ethereum tokens or in defy and all that and suddenly they were able to get in on BTC where previously they thought okay this is a digital goal I’m not that interested in it so they all flooded in to buy these tokens and part of the Innovation seems to be copying this Method that have been pioneered elsewhere but this has been the most effective usage of it where you have to submit crap the mint is like an open on-chain Mint so instead of the developer creating a thousand tokens and then you’re sort of auctioning them off instead it’s like it’s going to go live In two days and then once it goes live everybody is kind of rushing to put in their their transaction to Mint some of the some of the tokens so because of that what that means is if the price of the token goes up so let’s say this Audi Was the first token that they made and was the largest one if you make Audi if that’s five dollars per token and I can send a b2c transaction to Mint a hundred of them for um you know 100 of them in one transaction so that’s 500 right there Then I will pay anything up to 499 dollars in BTC transaction fees to Min that token because then I I can immediately sell it uh and make a one dollar profit right so the higher the price of the token goes the more money it’s worth spending in BBC fees to Um I mean these tokens of course that only lasts as long as the speculative Mania does because as more and more people rush in the mainly gets more hyped but at a certain point uh you know the Mania dies down for these essentially useless tokens and the price Um Falls and then you know if I was still minting at that time or if I was still trying to trade then I’m holding the bag and that sucks right but as a result of that it skyrocketed the fees on BBC which have been kind of Flatlining along at you know one or two dollars for quite a long time and they then went in a matter of days from five dollars up to thirty dollars and more than 200 blocks of backlogged transactions on BTC so this is very critical because it’s the first fee Crisis that BTC has had in a bear Market their previous two in 2017 and 2021 were both at the hype of the Euphoria of the price exploding which allowed a lot of justification and reasoning by the b2c people that ah it’s you know you can sweep a lot under the rug when everybody Is getting rich on paper essentially and this was the first time that the actual users of the chain people who actually transact on BDT were having to reckon with their Technical and economic choices at a time when there wasn’t Euphoria and media hype and we’re all Going to the moon and that’s created an absolute amount of chaos so that’s my summary does anybody want to add any elements to that that I’m missing or they’re they’re sort of first impression of all this I love it that’s my my impression I’m just I just love the chaos I think it’s Great that I don’t have any uh any technical uh additions to add there I’m just really really uh happy to see all this going on it’s great did anybody mint any I didn’t mean to I don’t have any business I didn’t make any BBC transactions so I didn’t get involved But did anybody do it but I didn’t no yeah just watching from the circus audience just uh just enjoying the show like cheap lightning said right now it goes all right that’s what I keep saying to people on Twitter right they’re like they’re like in this righteous outrage right they’re like You know whether it’s bigger blocks or Free Speech or whatever it is right I’m just like yeah yeah whatever it is it’s just hilarious the whole thing is hilarious right because it’s like yeah it doesn’t matter it doesn’t matter which one you want to do your [ __ ] no Matter which way you go so enjoy and and I normally wouldn’t be like that right I normally wouldn’t enjoy that kind of thing but it’s one of those times where you’re like look I’ve done everything I could possibly do to convince people that they shouldn’t be using BTC right that it’s a That it’s a captured chain that it’s a dead chain walking and so forth and I’ve done everything I could possibly do that that I can think of so I have zero kind of uh guilt about just sitting back and enjoying the fire because I’ve been trying to warn people to get out since Well forever since since 2017 16 14 15.so yeah just have to enjoy it for what it is so let’s look now from this angle then uh well like you’re saying it’s essentially been a huge Vindication of what the big block has I’ve been saying since time immemorial right that a chain Doesn’t work and there’s High fees people will move on to speculative Goods uh you know onto Alternatives and it’s foreignty people to reckon with the choices that they made and so far have been able to sweep under the rug so it’s taken maybe five or six years for the You know the karma to come back in the tide to uh regress but we’re starting to see that right so that’s that and this seems to have created a real shift in the market right there’s not been any event like this previously that has done so Much damage to all the stories and lies essentially that the laser eyes and the Bitcoin sort of Maximus have been telling them all these stories about digital gold and everything like that it’s it’s it’s worked for them so far I mean they’re still number one ether’s got up there close but they haven’t Flipped them on market cap and they’re not even sort of in the ballpark at the moment so uh no no those those narratives are completely irrational in the first place so they are resistant to any kind of rational uh inspection or discussion or whatever right they’re just irrational In the first place so they’re immune um because it’s as we said before I think in the last one is the marketing chain right it’s a name brand marketing chain which works on the value set by tether and exchanges not by utility the the floor of its value is not set by Utility in any way so in terms of the price and so forth that’s going to be what it’s going to be I don’t think this will have much of an impact on that but what has happened before and is happening now again in 2017 21 and now Is if you watch the graph of you know the transactions and they just hit the ceiling right boom hard and then it just it flat lines up that’s the only thing it can possibly do is Flatline and then you see volume pick up on other chains On bch on LTC on XMR you can see volume start to pick up and as soon as you’ve done that like you said substitute Goods people are they’re like oh [ __ ] well well when I really need to do something I guess I’ll go use that one right so The impact is that they’re you losing the little utility that it already had is is dropping because people are going to other places and the number of users that are like oh wait I can use other things is increasing but the marketing name brand and all That stuff it’s not really I don’t think it’ll have a big impact on it that’s why I I often say um and others are saying it too right like uh all this circus and house fire and all this stuff going on is a lose For BTC yes but it’s not a win for bch right like not not directly indirectly a bit but so the main thing is just keep keep making bch utility increase as much as we can is what we’ve got to do a blinding imaginary do you think do you Think this moment has created a serious shift in the broader crypto narrative I’m I’m again gonna offer a very cynical view of this um so we’ve been in a bit in a bear market and kind of flatlining on the crypto industry for for quite a while now and people are starving and by People I don’t just mean like you know people who buy nfts and coins and stuff I mean like exchanges and miners like this some of the biggest movers and shakers they are starving and you know they’re trying to re they’re trying to give back their losses from FTX and stuff and you Know there’s just not a lot of Revenue sources to um to get all to get all those and so this is especially true with exchanges I’ve I’ve observed this uh phenomenon or behavior a while ago that exchanges actually in particular they are very well funded many of them and they love Controversy the more chaotic the better because it generates hype and when whenever hype whatever hype or controversy appears there’s volume um and volume is good it’s good for business and well uh is it actually good for the hose chain or the ecosystem who cares who gives a [ __ ] that we we get to We get to get some hype and we better take them out on and we get a couple million dollars here and there and we survive for another day and that’s good enough um you know so uh yeah so it’s not just you know uh the so it’s it’s not just the ordinals the Wizards or tablet Wizards it’s not just you know the uh the people who want to go in and Dev and cause chaos there’s so there’s a lot of people there’s a lot of like bigger players who have their interests aligned with uh making this as chaotic and ask big a thing as possible Um at least for the meantime um so just like all the other things of this nature that we have seen before it will probably it will probably fade out after a while and nobody would remember them in a year uh but for the meantime you know it’s good enough so a lot of People would make some money out of this uh probably not the people who are left holding the backs so yeah the difference with bch and BTC in that context because the the the chaos and making money from volatility is I I completely agree with that but uh the Difference right is that BTC is probably the the vast majority of the backing for a lot of the shenanigans and [ __ ] in the ecosystem also like uh usdt so when when they claim to have backing so that BTC gets preferential treatment on that one so the the alpha Is to watch for this is non-investment advice right because I don’t do trading and [ __ ] anyway but the the real like the Joker right the Joker from Batman the Joker like smiling and hitting the button to blow [ __ ] up is uh when you see tether start to turn on BTC because that will Mean they have divested of BTC and done something else whatever the hell else they did that will be the sign that like shit’s about the the foundation’s about to go so uh that’s that’s uh I don’t know I just look for entertainment and all this so that’s the part that I’m Looking for but yeah there’s a little bit of a difference between BTC and everything else because of the uh it’s its place in uh backing on assets well there’s certainly an element to this which is quite unique that uh caught the market off guard I would say in the sense that because the Ordinals and the speculative Mania and everything drove so much revenue for miners it changes the incentives around how the ecosystem has to adapt to it because obviously a lot of people in the BDC Community we will come to that felt like this isn’t something that we want or this wasn’t what Bitcoin was Supposed to be which is of course quite ironic because if they knew what Bitcoin was supposed to be they would be in Bitcoin cash to begin with but whatever their variation of that is that they felt they had a solid hold on well suddenly all the quote unquote [ __ ] coin Is appearing on their chain to be you know ethereum light or bsv light uh was a disaster but it wasn’t it’s not a simple thing to say let’s just get rid of it not only because of the political status on BTC it’s not necessarily viable there in the first place but Secondarily is that the miners are going to be very hard if not impossible to convince to shut this off because they’re the ones making all the money and the entire story which the BBC side have been saying for quite a long time is that we want to Have high fees and eventually once the fees are high that will pay for all the security and they have this idea of a developing fee Market I mean to the extent that fees have gone up it’s mostly been because the price speculation has increased and the price of BDC has gone Up so therefore fees have gone up slightly but in terms of because like you said they’ve already hit the transaction throughput limit there’s no Inc you know if you’re only increasing the magnitude of the fees versus the volume of fees if you’re only increasing magnitude that just becomes increasingly Untenable which is the bch side have been saying forever if you’re never increasing the volume side but they finally got a spike in that magnitude it just didn’t come from the source they expect they sort of have this idea in their mind that over time people would Become more desperate to use BDC as the world’s economies sort of crumble into it and because of that it would be more and more Justified to pay a 50 fee to open a lightning channel to onboard a whole town of people in El Salvador right this is complete nonsense is not How it’s going to play out at all but that’s that’s how they thought and how it’s actually happened is that instead somebody’s found a exploit a bug that their own developers put in that interest that bch dodged that bsv didn’t need because it already was doing this kind of stuff anyway in Which LTC kind of swallowed the poison pill on and also has it right so uh they it happened in that way that’s what motivated somebody to pay thirty dollars or fifty dollar fees in a bear Market was speculating on this Audi tokens but that was firstly a flash in The pan there’s nobody who thinks that that’s necessarily that sustainable over the long term uh and secondly it it also shut down and crushed all of the oh we’re gonna have lightning Network and Michael Saylor is going to pay tons of money to move his institutional Bitcoins Around when they haven’t been doing that so far that hasn’t driven up fees and the Hope was at some point in the future it would but that like they’re having to confront the reality that well if there’s now people doing speculative stuff on our chain or anything else even Just making regular on-chain transfers those are competing with those lightning Network and Michael Saylor transaction so the desire has to be very high for somebody to pay that and that’s just not how it’s happening that’s one of the the sadder Parts is the people that aren’t technical enough to understand Lightning and how it works and are just absolutely convinced that it’s just the scaling solution right and it’s like man you have no idea what you’re in for and now they’re finding out right because well well they’re finding out two things one is anybody who’s actually making a a real attempt To use lightning is finding out it doesn’t work um for various reasons right which have been explained since more than six years ago and and especially once the prices once the fees go up not only does it not work but your money starts to be at risk Literally at risk of just going poof under your face you know being extorted for it or just accidentally closed out or whatever it is so yeah the ones who are making a serious attempt are realizing it’s just this [ __ ] doesn’t work at all and then the ones who don’t Care are just going to custodial Solutions and now they’re all in this whole rationalization of why custodial Solutions are okay it’s just like oh my God there’s like layer upon layer of Comedy uh from the outside it’s funny from the inside I’m sure it’s terrible but the the narrative is is hasn’t Really changed right so it’s like oh it’s changing yeah custodial is okay now but but I mean the the the Over The overreaching overarching Narrative of number goes up right so it’s like well I got my money BTC and it’s the big holder so if all of us right right little Little drama and tokens and whatever happens I don’t care because my nesting is safe in in in the store of value it’s it’s safe so and that’s why the custodial uh narrative works just fine in a marketing marketing coin context the custodial thing is like well sure it Doesn’t matter as long as the number goes up like you said but is it the case and I’ve seen this argument start to crop up I mean it’s very indicative that they rarely even use their own chain to be honest but yeah I’ve seen several people have now It’s sort of this thin end of the wedge I mean they’re just the Frog boiling in the pot right but they’re where they it’s now started to say well I have the majority of my coins are on chain non-custodial my you know my life savings they’re uh protected uh on layer One blah blah but I just have ten dollars on lighting which I use for transactions and that’s fine and I don’t care if that kind of gets lost but there’s no understanding that okay your goose is already cooked at this point because if uh your ten dollars is on Lightning firstly if lightning [ __ ] up uh or there’s this kind of disaster then how you’re going to be able to run your economy you’re not and then secondly that that it’s only a tiny fraction of the world that it’s using Bitcoin BDC or even cryptocurrency overall on on a Daily basis at the moment and if we’re they’re already sort of you know it’s not like they’re compromising to get over the last 10 percent they’re compromising at the stage of 0.0001 of adoption yeah and the principles are already going out the window so how is This going to scale up another you know potentially what five orders of magnitude at least at least and for for right in in the most painful thing is like I was saying to keep lightning the other day like just this Cassandra feeling right of being like hey we were Seeing this for literally like the last nine eight or nine years and uh come on right this is the part where you lose the feeling of guilt it’s like no I tried I really did I tried but I have this quote that I just pulled up not a Quote but the the thing that I wrote in this article like six years ago or 17 I don’t know when it was but I said uh the result is a complete failure as money the result will be a complete failure as money and the normal user can’t compete For space and even the wealthy will lose to the ultra wealthy right on on so even those people who are like no I have my stuff stored on chain like you said and you’re like how much how many coins do you have that in you know what percent Of your wealth are you gonna spend have to spend just to make one transaction at this imaginary unicorn future where you know people are saying paying you know 100 500 per transaction you know you’re competing with institutions what the [ __ ] is that it’s actually worth it yeah Um so so uh the usual narrative I mean we’ve all seen this in this show before uh the usual narrative was that oh uh well I think that uh the less Rich would just be out competed and you don’t need to transact on chain and you know on Chain should be just like container things that uh compete that ultimately it would compete with bad wire and so it will be totally fine because fed wire just uh do something like I don’t know like a like one transaction every couple every couple minutes or something so It’ll be totally fine ultimately and it will be just ridiculously high value thing going on well the problem the problem with that of course is that uh the fees are not would not only get high but it will be on it will be unpredictable the unpredictability is The worst thing so yeah um so once in a while uh you get you get some low fees and then as we have seen and the low fees period can get pretty long depending on how long the bear Market lasts and then you get something else Going on and it’s all rugged they just rock you um bad boy doesn’t do that so yeah it gets it gets worse it’s not just High fees but it’s also unpredictable and just unpredictability is what kills it yeah and that’s one of those things I keep saying to people like uh the samurai Wallet guys and some of the others who you know you’re like oh man I I actually believe that you have good intentions like you really gotta just open your eyes at some point and be like maybe we’re [ __ ] you know maybe these guys in control of consensus never had The best intentions of Bitcoin uh it they they never had that at heart right so hey you just imagine that some at some point people will will figure it out but so far it’s not been like that okay quick quick side note I don’t know Jay if you want to comment on this but I was just asking about a Cassandra uh feeling so people who don’t know Cassandra in Greek mythology Cassandra was a beautiful princess of Troy daughter of priyam and hakuba she was blessed with the gift of foreseeing the Future but her curse was that no one believed her which weighed heavily on the destruction of Troy during the Trojan War so that’s kind of this that’s why what’s his face the the famous uh guy from The Big Short um Michael Berry that’s why his name is Cassandra on Twitter yeah yes and it’s the it’s kind of the scenario that the bch community is now in where we’ve been predicting the Calamity and it’s now happening pretty much exactly as everybody said right from the start exactly of course we’re still and I want To dig into this are we being believed or are we not like we are some some people are starting to wake up this podcast is at nearly 1400 audio downloads this month and we’re only halfway through the month it’s our already setting all-time high records right so I I personally believe and I Have the evidence to back it up I think that people people are starting to wake up you know people are starting to get it and maybe not the most core people in the BTC scene but the damage across the crypto scene has been absolutely massive in terms of all the people who thought Okay well maybe I don’t know about this you know BDC Theory but it’s going fine so far so maybe they’re right so many people have started to wake up I think that that was that was not the question you you may be right on on the group of People who are actually looking at things and thinking about it and thinking what’s going on here right they’re maybe starting to figure it out that’s that’s true it might be true there’s there’s still a very large group of people though who are in this very I don’t know what to call it um Yeah like the rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic mode right where they’re like oh but we need to do the thing and we need to do the thing where we do an extra extension block and then we like do a thing and then we’re gonna block inscriptions and then something something And then you’re like and then and then keep going keep going and then at the end they’re like yeah but be cash was wrong they’re a bunch of scammers but we need to do what they did you know I mean it’s like yeah but the people who are actually Paying attention and thinking about it rationally I think they’re starting to see that you know something stinks especially when [ __ ] Adam back like posts some [ __ ] like oh it’s veblen money or some more [ __ ] you just like shut the [ __ ] up dude or uh uh uh Peter Todd uh or van wierdom or some of these other guys post some [ __ ] about oh well when Satoshi mentioned cash in the Bitcoin white paper what he meant was uh and then they pull out some cachet something explanation and there’s some Wikipedia entry about some obtuse thing that nobody’s ever heard of and You’re like no [ __ ] they’re talking about he was just talking about cash like everybody thinks of cash cash yeah but they’re really going in circles uh but but the thing is the hard part is even the people who start to realize something’s wrong it’s yet another step For them to come to the conclusion that these people who actually are in control of BTC consensus which people don’t even realize in the first place but even if they realize that and then they have to take another step to realize wait maybe these guys don’t have you know The interests of Bitcoin at heart uh maybe they’re not actually aiming for the same thing I’m aiming for like there’s several steps to really realize that BTC is in a really bad position so I don’t I still don’t think it’s going to be many people that actually get that Far until you know until the market just falls off a cliff and then of course everybody was like oh well anyway move on one one thing I keep doing on on Twitter is asking people in in BTC like what is the process for consensus on BTC like how is consensus decided like it Doesn’t matter if if you want Big Blocks or you want to censor ordinals or whatever your your idea to help this this current crisis is what is the process to make a change right and not a single person has answered me because it’s not written down it doesn’t exist Right how well you you submit to a a change on on GitHub or you know like nobody’s even said that right because nobody talks about it nobody talks about it um you know going in a time machine like back to when I got into Bitcoin and was just using it as cash And and the the fees started to Skyrocket you know I thought well the guys in charge are smart because they understand computer science and stuff so of course they’re gonna fix it and they’re good and it will continue um and I was so wrong a bunch of assumptions and they’re still there all Those assumptions it took me quite a while to realize like oh wait there’s there you know they talk about decentralization over and over and over again but uh decision making is absolutely centralized and as far as I know like basically there’s going to be a couple Guys who are going to get together and they’re going to make a decision they’re either going to decide to do nothing or they’re going to decide to extend blocks or Big Blocks or they’re going to decide to censor a certain kind of transaction and how do you get a vote in that system How do you make a proposal it’s just it’s completely unclear and nobody knows and everybody just trusts that somebody is going to do something and it’s uh for anyone who’s in in BTC you should really like stop and ask what is the process to fix this like not What is the fix what is the process to fix this and if you don’t know well then you should find out um because that’s your your savings theoretically right so go on go on we’ll ask yes hang on a second I gotta I gotta you know uh Over here yeah no no but I gotta I gotta I know what the answers they would give you uh though the there’s there’s two answers here the first thing is that they believe that their node is their vote so I’m running a node you can’t Rush my node and so I believe you know I would say that even if the Bitcoin core made an update let’s say to take out the Taproot stuff and they happen to be running a node and in favor of the Tap Root then they would say okay well I’m Just not going to upgrade my node and you’re stuck that sort of avoids the fact that Bitcoin core is clearly deciding the agenda of what’s coming in the future or could somehow trick them or find a way to you know slide it in like Taproot got in like out anybody Expecting that it would turn into ordinals Wizards so who knows where the next thing they cook up well you know but the point is that’s that’s the firstly that’s what they would say and the second thing is you need to understand that the BDC Community there’s some great streams by uh tone Vase uh and all them when they were discussing the Taproot because there was a lot of drama with the introduction of Taproom in BDC and the drama was I think we even probably covered it on this show at the time I would need to check what the exact episode was but the Um the drama was about what is the pro what you’re talking about what is the process to decide and the thing is they want there not to be a process because in their mind that makes Bitcoin the most resilient if there is no process because then to get in a change to this Supposedly immutable unchangeable uh you know slowly code ossifying project not only if there is no uh you know clear goal for what we’re trying to do it was just created by Satoshi and it’s perfect if we don’t touch it but also if there’s no way to even agree on what a code Change would look like or what a consensus change is it I mean obviously it all goes back to that original censorship of Big Blocks and you’re not allowed to discuss it right if nobody can even discuss it and there is no process and there is nothing well then They have this Duality that consensus will just magically emerge out of the market like some Mystical Force when everyone would suddenly know but on the other hand you’re not allowed to discuss or figure out any objective metrics or milestones for for how that would work they’d like it that way that’s what I’m Trying to tell you so asking them what is the process they’ll just say consensus or the market will decide right well we even have people in bch ecosystem who think similarly right they liked ABC being the reference node that makes all the decisions and is the alpha or whatever something like that right These are the the kind of closet authoritarians I think they they actually think that that level of authority is the right thing to do the dude I promise you they’re still here in bch ecosystem too so yeah I agree there’s there’s a whole large contingent of people who like to have someone who Tells them what to do so I just want to add to that a bit so uh no matter what the BTC people say um there are thesis about decentralization and their ability to resist you know unjust changes was entirely unfounded um while on bch that is actually a that is Actually a fact that we have pulled off um you know we have rejected unjust change from you know the quote-unquote dominant repo uh that releases the node so that it that that is a fact and that you know a lot of people say that oh that was uh That was a disaster that was just you know some routine thing that bch falls they do chaos with but that singular event I would say is made us qualitatively different from all the other major change and I I don’t I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything before even even changed at even change That Pride themselves as being always so decentralized uh and we are counter cultural you know chains like Monero um you have never seen this before we are the only guys who have uh crossed this bridge and hence we are now in Uncharted Territory um exploring the uh the uh the effects Of the the effects of what this means yeah hang on so I want to just clarify on this so this is something I’ve mentioned uh quite heavily in the Bitcoin cash podcast FAQ I think it’s quite a critical point so as far as I’m aware there’s only two major chains that Have ever rejected uh leading development uh team which is Bitcoin cash and ethereum classic we have to give them props they also I think could claim the same thing that from their perspective an unjust change was being made to the channel like what whoever is developing ethereum classic now it’s Clearly not you know the difference is they lost well weight loss right like like no no we lost with BTC to bch yes we lost right because if we had won we wouldn’t even had bch we would just have BTC but they lost in the Same way there but not with ABC no with ABC yeah the reference client was kicked the [ __ ] out but that’s why I’m saying so bch is unique in the sense that yeah it’s Unique had three chain splits but it’s oh it’s the only uh coin where the Developer the metal sort of lead Dev implementation has been thrown out twice that’s only ever been done by two coins uh once which was uh Etc and bch and then only bch has done it on multiple occasions and I guess like we said come out with a minority uh majority split Well what I mean what I mean uh you know uh it is it is not that difficult to actually well I mean well I mean we kind of trill Blazer the first time the first time was difficult but uh once the president has been set it is not that Difficult to you know Fork up and become a minority like that has been done like many many times and uh every Fork every Fork Under the Sun can I can all claim that um some became significant some did not become significant but I think what made Us unique is that that we are the only team who has ever fought and won um like unambiguously and that is unique among all the chains yes but important I’m I’m less I’m bringing it back less yeah wait wait wait what are you less sold on well like that’s absolutely true you Know I know it’s true it’s true I agree that it’s true and I agree that it’s Unique but I to me the the key point is the mult the multiple chain splits that bch has been through three that I I’m less concerned with who won or lost each Side of the split so much that there’s a clear precedent of you’re looking at me like I’m crazy but you know obviously if if obviously it would have been better if BCS had just won it in the in the first place right but just to me it’s more about Okay I understand there’s some distinction between uh a more uh leaving base huge we kicked out Bitcoin core and then that was that was the same thing right yeah yeah but but about filtering out Bad actors with bsv it’s the exact same thing you’ve got to filter out Bad Actors and win you have to feel some Bad actors and win right if you filter out Bad actors and lose you you get decimated right the first time you get decimated Network effect literally decimated right the original meaning tenth one tenth you get you get a an exponential decrease in your network Effect you do it again you lose again you’re down to a right you you meet you quickly fall down to just complete irrelevance so no you have to win without winning are just just whatever I mean I mean one day one day I would like the flipping to to happen and then and Then again and then I can retroactively like that you know you know what we ultimately won 2017.exactly um that would be nice but we we’re not we’re not at that point yet yeah and importantly to bring this back from serious discussion to entertaining discussion the thing about BTC and the Tap room was I don’t know how many people know but the the the people who are in control of consensus on BTC which is like Bitcoin core digital currency group The the MIT uh the cash uh [ __ ] I forget their name but then there’s the other group that’s that’s More important than the other MIT initiative or whatever yeah we don’t know there’s this one might forget anyway um those guys the ones who all voted like in a block the one megabyte forever type no hard forts ever group right like the Greg acolytes those guys um Did not like tap rooting they didn’t want it but right BTC uh totally demonizes miners it’s kind of funny they’re like oh miners they’re the security guards of whatever you know like they’re lowly lowly guys they’re not the ones blah blah blah so they don’t like miners they demonize them on The regular but uh coolant is the one that drove Taproot the pool pooling is the one that drove Taproot and made it happen and I don’t know exactly how that happened but I suspect it was just the pool and was like Hey look this is happening for whatever the [ __ ] reason I Don’t know why they drove that process it was really bizarre I never quite figured out why they were driving that process but they did and they made it happen and I think it looked like the the core developers just kind of were like oh all right like we don’t want to Have a fight right we’re not allowed to have a big brouhaha because that would affect the uh the marketing of BTC and make it look like whatever and maybe potentially have a split so that’s that’s no bueno right so somehow pool and got it through I still don’t know How all that worked but I think it’s just Prime comedy that of mining pool is the one that drove Taproot and made it go through in the end that’s probably only funny to me but I think it’s hilarious all right keep Landing okay all right so I wanna I I wanna bring this discussion then too I’ve so I’ve got a bunch of slides here I don’t know how in detail we we need to do do them all but I’ve essentially broken down we’re treating the BDC Community as one sort of United Uh entity in this scenario which for the proposes of that discussion it’s it’s correct to do right but the reality is What’s Happening Here is that there’s at least three and I’m gonna say maybe even like four kind of camps of that have approached this entire uh situation in The in the BBC communities well the first thing to note is that the the price has uh of the transactions and all the um fees have gone back down so they’re now back today right now let me just check on mempool.space but they’re now okay 2.67 okay they’ve gone up a little Bit but they were one dollar earlier today and there’s 186 blocks of backlog but the fee levels which were causing huge crisis which were like twenty dollars for more than a week uh or you know multiple days if not a week uh have sort of subsided for the Time being so the immediate uh fire you know in the in the dynamite uh is is stops ticking right but that that’s that’s changed things a little bit but there’s so I’ve got four categories so you’ve got the people who are pro BRC 20 and essentially ordinals they’re kind of Wrapped up together which is the sort of uh Taproot Wizards guys you’ve got uh against the the brc20 which on the original episode we called the classic Maximus but I think it’s better come to be the laser eyes um so this kind of competing faction of the tablet Wizards has risen against the Sort of laser eyes then you have a third Camp who are sort of neutral in the sense that they often believe that there’s like they might agree or disagree with ordinals and most of them maybe disagree they dislike it they they would prefer that it wasn’t there but they don’t Think it can or should be removed that seems to be a big chunk of people again coming back to this whole what’s the process we don’t know Bitcoin is immutable people innovate within constraints if it’s a valid transaction it’s a valid transaction that kind of thing right so there’s a big crowd of People who maybe dislike that this has happened but they kind of accept that it’s inevitable now that it has uh and then the fourth group is everybody who’s basically outside any of those camps and is in essentially you know bch everything everybody who’s like speculating or poking their nose in uh Kind of from the sidelines often with great uh entertainment about about this entire situation right so to to take them sort of Step by Step because I think each each uh camp in this has quite a different um relevance to to the narrative and it’s going to be quite impactful going Forward over the next however long um you know time to see as each group because there’s no way to assess this right for everybody who is following along at home there’s no like scorecard that we can look at to see I’ve identified these major groups but there’s no objective way to know who’s Really gaining prominence in the community because it’s decentralized that’s the whole point this all happens in the minds of BTC holders spread about everywhere so you can sort of follow what’s going on on Twitter a little bit but it’s like any Revolution or potential geopolitical Civil War it’s Pretty chaotic and nobody really knows what’s going to happen so the first group being the Taproot Wizards Eric Wall Udi worth I’m a Nick Carter interestingly Dan held you know they’re sort of the largest most prominent ways but a lot of them I had said wow yeah it’s very ironic I’d said on The previous episode uh that I didn’t think they could win a Civil War in PDC the reason I gave was because they didn’t have the developers these guys they’ve got a lot of social media cloud and influence and they’re excellent marketers but at the end of the day you Know Bitcoin is a technical project so to win a civil war you get you’re going to need some solid devs you’re going to need to at least have a believable node implementation plus wallets plus you know or indexes on and on right but yeah crypto Rich they could totally well that off Maybe I don’t I don’t know because I think it takes more than just having a bit of cash I don’t know that they are as rich as they say or maybe you know they they probably have a decent amount of money but they’re all like busy guys Like Dan held he’s not chilling on an island you know he spends his time working for various crypto companies maybe he does that because he believes it but anyway setting that aside I think there’s an element of credibility that you you need in your developers which They suddenly got by accident and in a surprise twist with all these bsv devs from twitch and relay eggs and whatever who made the ordinals wallet and unisat so it’s important for people to understand like in the whole crypto ecosystem there’s not necessarily that many people specialized in building on Bitcoin because BCC has been stagnant the bch devs have been obviously focused on bch they’re unlikely to defect in fact their morale will be is and will be rising as a result of BDC turning into a disaster faster but the bsv devs who’ve been in this ecosystem that’s circling The drain they’ve suddenly discovered this opportunity to just jump in and turn BBC into basically bsv and behind me right yeah I listened to this Twitter space where they were just talking about it and it makes perfect sense guys we already had all the software we already Knew how the utxo model worked we’d already experts in all this stuff so we just plugged it in that’s why they were able to spin this stuff up so fast so they’ve now formed this kind of unlikely alliance with Eric and uh yeah it’s true because you’ve got the Taproot Wizards causing absolute Chaos on the marketing front and then these guys are doing it on the on the coding front and the thing is they’re they’re not really coordinated though so it’s kind of more like do they did the Taproot Wizards guy actually realized that they’re working With bsv I don’t know and I don’t think so and it’s kind of the way I see it is it’s kind of like the the BS big devs have come in and Eric is now celebrating look at all this stuff that’s happened with ordinals and all that but he Doesn’t realize he’s got like the it’s like a you know chimp with a machine gun like in the background like that’s his soldiers that are just like spraying out wildly everywhere and he has no control over what they do so if they’re starting up Twitter spaces getting loads of clout In the BDC Community from their um you know from from their creation of ordinals was which all these speculative d-gens are flooding into it’s like he’s he’s at the top enjoying the it’s like the Joker analogy you were talking about before if he’s he’s the one like who’s Lighting the match or pouring gasoline on the fire he doesn’t really have any control once it’s started it’s it’s like out of his hands and that’s exactly what he thinks it’s proving his point but if he later changes his mind or wants to do it In a different way so I’ve got a meme on this slide that he posted of these two wizards sitting down one’s reading this book of brc20 and he’s captioned it yes Bitcoin was destroyed but for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of revenue for miners so there’s Sort of this subconscious realization in there that [ __ ] we might have opened Pandora’s Box without realizing it right now they’re fully like in some pseudo-narcissistic mode where they’re like look we have proven that BTC Works in a certain way and it does this thing and therefore some I don’t It’s this weird rationalization of things like they they see themselves as having demonstrated to the world something and it’s like yeah you demonstrated it doesn’t work it’s what you demonstrated but they have it in their heads that they demonstrated the way forward and I don’t think they realize that that’s not what’s happened What they’ve done is they’ve they’ve created a social split right they’ve actually initiated the social split and I don’t think they realize it that they have initiated initiated the social split and and chain splits absolutely happen at the social level long before the actual chain split happens I don’t think they realized it Are you blinding any thoughts on this oh no I love it I just I yeah it’s a chaos I didn’t have nothing to add I just I love it they’re they’re you know they’re improving they’re proving that that uh the emperor you know has no clothes right it’s like all of these arguments That have been going on for years and it’s like okay well here we are and then and you know the none of the arguments hold up you know where we’ve we’ve been teleported back in time I was like this is exactly what we said it’s completely 2017 all over but somehow they think They’ve shown the way and you’re like I think it didn’t show the way you just showed that you’re all living in a box an irrational box but that’s it I think they do realize that they’ve caused a a split and we’re going to get on to this but uh Udi has been going on uh podcasts and stuff and saying essentially Bitcoin needed some fixing b2c was kind of not getting there and all that Innovation and excitement because he’s been on podcast saying guys look at all these nfts you might think every nft in the World is garbage but people are doing it on ethereum and not on BTC like once upon a time we were going to be the online digital native economy and we’re not we need to fix this right so he’s cooked up this stuff uh aided or you know abetted by the the discovery of This Taproot exploit which you may or may not have been directly involved in I’m not too clear about that but one way or another it’s happened and now him and his mates have Amplified it through the roof right but he’s been saying look where there’s this culture on BBC it’s Not going to work all these laser eyes that are closed minded ironically they defectors themselves from they were you know former allies right he used to be one of them and now he’s decided that’s the wrong path so the solution that he came up with look we Need to get a bunch of new people into BDC who have a different mindset we need to introduce a new demographic and that’s what he’s been saying was his plan and that’s what he’s been doing with these events with the wizard hats and all that and now in a couple of days I think it’s on the 17th or maybe it’s in a couple days after it’s the BBC Miami the big yearly conference is going to come up and he’s already been posting I’m gonna they’re gonna do a panel where he’s talking about it with some other people and he’s already said to people Like you need to show up at the conference where your Wizards had like I want to see it it’s going to be quiet but honestly is he do you think do you predict that he’s actually going to do Bitcoin xt2 or do you think no but he Doesn’t need to that’s the and that’s what we’re gonna that’s uh we’ll talk about this in just a moment because that’s the whole point is the Taproot Wizards kind of have their game made for them because the status quo is in their favor that was the key point of the BBC And bch split was that the big blockers were the ones against the clock you know they were the ones who had to split off and the status quo the sort of incumbent Advantage was on the side of the small block because you could always say well Guys let’s just not touch it and like in the absence of a clear Way Forward perhaps nothing is the you know if if everything’s gridlocked then we’re good let’s just sit on it and the that’s why this exploit is so critical because the Taproot Wizards are the ones sitting on That if the laser eyes were the ones sitting on the status quo and the Tap Root Wizards were saying guys we need to upgrade to add ordinals that would be a completely different scenario but it’s the other way around which is the the irony right but but they don’t really I have Yeah I mean what they don’t realize right is that for the exact reasons that those Tapper Wizards guys are off on ethereum with those exact reasons this uh artificial pressure this temporary pressure is going to just vaporize right because it’s not working people are just like oh we’ll keep using BTC forever like it’s the only chain it’s the the chain to rule them all we’re going to keep using it for ideological reasons something something something no people just go to other places so this pressure that they’re imagining is just going to vaporize and that will be incredibly hilarious if it vaporizes right As they go into the conference and everybody’s like well it’s okay now I think I know that I think they’ve got a bit of uh you know hype any excitement and they are appealing like we said Dan held is on board with this there is a Segment of BTC coiners who want to be a part of all this excitement and fun and Innovation that’s been happening on ethereum and now they see it happening on BDC and they think great let’s be part of it so you’ve got yeah but what I’m saying is is the only thing that Makes the incumbency uh the incumbent position of you know one megabyte forever as a ridiculous position to be in their favor the only thing that makes that in their favor is the current pressure and if that current pressure evaporates because they don’t they don’t need to get a change through Bitcoin core to Have the situation they want at least not as it currently stands Oh you mean they don’t actually want to have like a a block increase or anything probably not I think they’re good with it how it is right never mind this this dispute is actually uh very different than the the 2017 Dispute because in this dispute the guys that want nothing to change are the guys with Hats they have they have the wizard exactly so yes this is exactly it’s a it’s an I don’t even notice that it’s the full hat reversal for the [ __ ] hat yeah the width of that all he needs To do is get one with uh you know no 2x on his wizard hat and then come in with the fire that would be fun if I was in Miami Florida I would absolutely open a wizard hat stall outside all right make some money right just there you go everybody wizard hats enjoy Wait so is there a group that’s like hey maybe we need I have seen some people right who are like maybe we should consider increasing the box size is there a group like that well I think there is yeah yeah this is the whole thing like that’s not that’s not uh you know There’s no official position right but as far as I understand of The Taproom Wizards that’s not the message there’s a few people bubbling up with those ideas but they’re inevitably going to find their way that’s probably the ones who are downloading this [ __ ] podcast this month that’s them right Yeah welcome welcome back to bitcoin yeah they’re on there you’re on the right team here you know welcome to the out the way Bitcoin used to be uh but the the the Wizards are not going hard on a block size increase because it kind of comes back to the same thing of Like we’ve demonstrated that there’s a problem slash we also think we’ve fixed the problem because they’ve been we fixed the security budget issue that nobody else had fixed right uh which they only fixed temporarily anyway I wanna okay so I’ve got community comment of the week just quickly is from cheap Lighting who says Eric Wall is is the best be cashier BTC has and that’s just summarizes so much it’s done so much to help help our cause in that regard but I wanted to talk again about the opposite position of the the laser eyes are in Right so these are the ones who uh historically have had control of the BBC narrative and stuff maybe a bit uh unawares that there’s a greater power but to a certain extent they see that [ __ ] coining has infected BTC there’s been some discussion or a sentiment definitely in the in the community there That they need to switch this off and get rid of it and take it out somehow so there’s been mutterings about that but no serious proposals that I’m aware of they lied and tricked the code exactly Luke Jr has talked about a patch decor and the the clout in the community has Mostly been going on to the wizard side like it’s been draining out of these large Twitter accounts like uh I mean he’s a bad example because I think he’s a bit more in the neutral scam but shinobius uh monk he certainly has the laser eyes Twitter picture that We did the debate review with cyprian versus him so you can go back and listen to that episode a few episodes ago if you want to get more of a flavor of that right uh but Eric has been uh [ __ ] on them as okay these are these played Out podcast grifters who they are to be honest uh Jimmy song and you know I’m not sure what side tone base is but he would be more in that camp but whoever the rest of them is I’ve got a quote here from hodler knights who says it’s Like Roger and Jihan got their BBC back put on wizard hats and went for round two same Energy new Hearts so the Hat’s getting called out again there too of course historical accuracy is not a key strength but the point is like this kind of idea of they’re they’re fueling the fire of Like wait it’s The Block size War again all these Taproot Wizards are just the undercover big block that’s what they’ve been saying that this is the return of the big blockers in this new skin because maybe they are aware that the BSB devs are in there it’s not totally False it’s true the BRZ devs have knocked back in through the [ __ ] side door of the castle and are now uh standing [ __ ] on fire right and there’s a lot of people in the b2c camp who’ve never had a reason to really or are they Just be cash is a scam or whatever but now that ordinals was happening and it was the hype and it was what everybody was listening to suddenly they’re listening to these bsv guys say look small blocks is nonsense and uh you know but the laser eyes are just They’re up against it because they don’t they are the ones who have to make a change now right the ball is in their Court they have to put up a proposal and they would have to create uh I don’t know a soft walk or a hard fork or Whatever they cooked up to try and shut off the ordinals or they just have to let it be and a certain segment seems to think that they can just wait it out and that’s been Vindicated in the sense that the fees have now gone down But at any time a new Mania could start about some new way somebody found to drive hype like or their Wizards are probably cooking that up right now and then they’re back in the same situation right so okay I want to ask the cynic in Chief Um and that’s you name so yeah like considering considering all these hilarious potential uh eventualities of of different timelines here um there’s a lot of people in bch I think who maybe don’t get all the technical details don’t understand the social political uh issues at hand and so forth but they just fundamentally Have this fear of oh my God but if BTC increases their block size [ __ ] right and they’re like super scared because they think that will somehow uh one is a possibility without any other uh terrible externalities happening when that happens and two that it will just totally evaporate all uh advantage and Work that that bch has done and so forth so um is that true what’s the case and and what do you see as the kind of eventualities of all this uh all these many possibilities uh hilarious possibilities that are in front of us so there are two so uh the conclusion first Is that I am not worried about this whatsoever and uh then there are two reasons to this um one of one of them has regards to the nature of BTC and the other one has something to do with the nature of bch that a lot of people probably uh still Don’t get so I will start with the bad news first um the part about the nature of PCH is that this is 20 we are now at 2023 having a bigger block size than BTC is nice and in this at a necessary condition for success but we’re not Gonna you know it’s not something unique anymore we’re not gonna ghost on the fact that we have a bigger block size than BTC anymore uh that is not that is not a that is not a sufficient that is not a sufficient condition for success we will have to build we will have to Build and uh this building is going to take time and we are going to build unique things and that will we are going to build unique things and we’ll hype it up and that will be the and you know those things would be those would be things that You simply can’t find elsewhere and that will be the recipe for success and the block size is just one necessary condition of that so you know even if BTC people somehow got their [ __ ] together and uh increase the block size that part would not change um they are not go they’re they don’t Have nearly as much of a desktop established upgrade processes we do and they don’t you know uh they are simply not going the same way as we do they are still [ __ ] around with things that they are [ __ ] around today and the other thing is that uh it has to Do with the nature of BTC if they actually managed to you know or a dominant group that they have actually managed to convince themselves uh but into a hard Fork that increases block size that will be terrible use for BTC that will that will be incredibly terrible yes and if You know if I am a BTC holder I will be rightly very very much against it um and that is not out of stupidity or conservatism that is out of pure self-interest because a lot of people simply don’t realize the value of BTC like lightning you know the ability to Transact or the nose not of that [ __ ] matters a lot of that [ __ ] matters btc’s fundamental value proposition is that it is old and it hasn’t changed for a while it’s been there since however a long cryptocurrency has been around as aging and that is comforting and that is a Comfortable fact Lindy is a thing so you know and just by the fact that it is uh five years older than ethereum uh ethereum can never beat the fact that it had that it’s been around for longer and it hasn’t really changed while you know ethereum is changing all The time and that is the fundamental value proposition uh no other coin can not even bch can challenge that particular value proposition and losing it is very bad news it’s very very bad news for that it’s chasing something that other chains all have to some degree While losing your one unique thing it is terrible news that’s why I was shocked how they got tampered in like how pool and manage they could bounce you know that that Trend that Trend started with sex with which is also which is also bad news but it is a bit Less of a bad news because they somehow managed to convince people oh soft works out okay as long as it’s a software everything is gonna be okay but now that narrative now that the narrative has said it well that must mean that hard Forks are terrible news right well if What if you do it hard work right now uh that is objectively terrible news um for your value proposition then then you’re just one of them then you’re just one of those coins who do hard works and you don’t have a value proposition anymore so yeah All right for everybody who uh gets this question I haven’t uh FAQ on the Bitcoin cashpodcast.com which is called if bch improved on BDT by raising the one megabyte block size limit what if BTC does the same and it’s probably one of the top two or three articles that People read I can see in the stats one of the most popular questions is why doesn’t bch Rebrand or will it Rebrand so you can read about that if you’re interested but well this is one of the other the most popular questions people to say look on PC just raise the blocks That so I’ve been looking for I have an explanation but uh the analogy that I’ve hit on to explain this is it’s like saying France and Spain are right next to each other and French and Spanish are kind of similar right so what if France just decides to become the leader in Spanish and that’s just not going to work right as anybody can just understand that instantly and see it’s not going going to work why all the Spanish speakers not or literally all of them but almost all of them are in Spain right all the good language schools are In Spain all the experts in Spanish all the history all the language schools that teach Spanish is everything it’s all in Spain and all the stuff that is French all that is not even just not Spanish but it’s French instead it’s all moving in another direction is all in France so if you’re in France and you want to be a Spanish speaker the first thing you would do is you would pick up and move to Spain and that actually reinforces the fact that all the energy is in is in Spain right so there is no way to simultaneously convince all of France to drop French and switch to Spanish and it’s the exact same thing with bch and BDC all of the people who like big blocks and who like the bch approach to things are already in bch it’s like True by definition and all the people who don’t want that who Definitely don’t want that are in BTC so there is no uh getting out of this uh Jam essentially so that’s uh that’s the simple way of thinking about it but if you want the the non-analogous if you want the actual rational explanation all you need to understand is that even If there was some certain percentage of people in BDC that wanted a larger block size limit and let’s say there was enough of them and they were aren’t like these Tap Root Wizards might be an example right they kind of say bdc’s got a lot going for it we’re going to just Win a civil war right how are they going to do that so to win a Civil War and have a fork and so on and so forth the amount of things you need to do is unreal we’re talking about years of effort so firstly you need to have Community debate and discussion you need to coordinate everything you need to get the resources together you need to get the devs to build um you know your wallet and your node implementation all that stuff you need to get uh support from the miners which like we talked about is maybe not that Easy the miners are always busy with their own stuff they can be a bit finicky you need to actually successfully launch the split very not easy to do obviously bch did it but uh hostile chain split is a very very tricky and risky thing uh even after you Forked off you would then have further contention obviously bch had bsv and ecash well then whoever is in this new you know Bitcoin two megabytes that undoubtedly the initial plan let’s all jump on that would then devolve into arguing about what about this what about that what about you know new things There so then they need a new brand they need a new governance structure they need uh to make technical changes like a new address format the difficulty algorithm changes replay protection loads of stuff that you’re not you’re not immediately cracking on with the next greatest thing you’re actually you Know dealing with the problems in the past particularly because bch when it forked uh it was like let’s take out RBF and then where where and then do those changes and we’re done but these new people that now they’re dealing with segwit they’re dealing with Taproot loads of problems right Then you have the one megabyte believers who are either in the majority or the minority they have a bunch of coins on this new Bitcoin to Fork that they can dump so they’re going to drive the price down massively which is exactly what has happened with every other minority Fork So now your community is like out of money and struggling or they’re still having to use the other chain which is not helping your cause then you’ve got b2c based businesses exchanges liquidity software projects Community forums you know podcasts meetups everything all the network converter all that now Splintered now in chaos as people are going one side or the other or selling out uh you’ve got disruption you know obviously bch suffered the censorship and so on if if it’s really on the line the laser eyes are gonna are gonna get serious about fighting back right that’s Going to be a disaster you’re going to have all the people who yeah let’s do the predictions let’s do the predictions I’m going to do this yeah you always like to do predictions right we should do yeah you’re going to do a prediction and who’s gonna I I still stick by my Prediction I I mean I have less confidence now but I still think it’s the most likely outcome is is uh that the inscriptions get blocked off like gets closed off in some kind of on the main chain yeah they won’t call it a hard Fork but it’ll be a hard Fork But they’ll like try to play around it and call it that it’s not a hard Fork because it disallows things but that’s I that’s still what I think will happen they’ll just disallow inscriptions so that um there’s not enough uh to relieve the pressure to just make sure there’s no Pressure on anything right because they don’t care if BTC is used they don’t care about it like like you name said uh what they care about is the marketing and the name and the brand and just the price of it you don’t care whether it’s Used or not so I think all they want to do is remove that pressure I I don’t know but that’s still what I think what do you think will that be a split will the Taproot Wizards then create another fork and or would they win the brand name or the Laser eyes so far so far I think no because I haven’t seen anybody who has the willpower to do it um so no I don’t think on stage at BDC Miami with his wizard hats uh 30 of the crowd 50 of the crowd I have to think he’s intelligent enough to know That he’s gonna cause a split if he pushes it that way but maybe he’s really so self-deluded that he thinks he’s going to cause but because Poland did he might win so it’s possible right it’s possible that he wins as as Poulin did and just uh pulls off some kind of fork But a hard fork wow that’ll be that’ll be impressive yeah so I want to hear the predictions about what you guys think will happen if Landing thoughts um I I think it is going to depend on money so I don’t I don’t know the technical details of how how the Solution that Luke is talking about would work so I think if if they make it so that no new uh brc20 tokens can be created or something like that that doesn’t nuke people’s Investments and there’s already been like hundreds of millions of dollars or something moved Right uh I think anything that that is just going to make people’s money evaporate is going to cause problems right so if they can somehow finesse the code so that no new tokens can be created but whatever is already existed can still be moved around and stuff I Think they would do that but if that’s not possible I think they will just status quo not do anything because evaporating people’s money is just going to cause so much stress and and reputation damage as well right so it’s like BTC is great unless you do something that someone doesn’t like and Then they just make your money disappear uh you know who’s going to put money in that so uh that’s my my prediction one of those two paths forward I mean Heath did it they they evaporated someone’s money and it kind of worked out for them but kind of a different Scenario you name do you have a do you ever thought are we going to see a Civil War who would win and uh I don’t think there’s going to be a real war there might be a pretend War there’s not but there’s not going to be a real War and ultimately I think uh you know given what we have seen so far this I’m gonna make wacky prediction that these guys are gonna uh go off and either do some sort of a side chain maybe a high another solution I don’t know drive chain or something like that along the Way or maybe just make a new coin and and call it like BTC ordinals or something and then there there will be there will be some sort of uh there will be another sort of uh airdrop or pre-mind on that chain or side chain and uh you know people doing it will get Moderately rich with any chance at the expense of uh back orders of course and uh and then in a year or so uh this guy is this this guys would have moved on and everyone else will be holding the bags and then the world proceeds as usual because That’s how the things have always worked whether they realize it or not yeah all right all quiet from uh busy fighting with uh Pancho yeah sorry I got distracted do you have a do you have a take are we gonna see a a BBC Civil War who would win I mean the Civil War’s already started so we’re seeing it um but I don’t I’m just gonna escalate yeah I think so I’m curious to see uh how far the escalation goes because I could definitely see like Luke Dash Junior coming in and being like this is The perfect time to decrease the block size so we’ll see where it goes but I don’t really have any predictions I think this is uh a little more out of my wheelhouse like all of my exposure to this has just been on the show uh and I haven’t been Like deep into the Twitter threads so yeah yeah okay well I I want to add that I want to add to it I don’t think I don’t think any kind of uh really significant split will happen because of what I said before which is um it takes real willpower to execute That and all the things you said like all that huge list of reasons that you said really executed by the way like I mean it was it was going on and it was really awesome that’s the point it’s it’s that’s the point right is that it takes a huge amount of willpower to Actually execute a split a minority split or major or whatever to execute that split will happen and I think even if uh the Taproot Wizards uh have that intent they’re gonna lose it once they feel the full force of of of everything against them when when They try to do it so I think I don’t think they have the willpower to go through with it or even because they don’t even have really the intent they don’t have that much of an intent to do it so yeah your names is really that’s pretty pretty persuasive I’ve got a slide here which is called crypto has got the message basically I found this threaded on Twitter which I think just summarizes the fact that to me the people in the BBC Camp there may be squabbling around but everybody else is kind of with it they’re one step away From joining up to bch essentially so a Shale underscore BDC said and uh in the context of discussing uh a fork to remove uh ordinal said lull what can they do first of all they need to convince a large amount of miners that we’re making at least 20x what they used To before ordinals ordinals make the blockchain safer what are the points that they will make to cancel the protocol La Mayo so that’s actually incorrect they’re not making 20x as much work uh as much money but they’re making you know a little more than 2x but it’s enough to be significant anyway agent Pepe then uh said wouldn’t be the first time Bitcoin forked so it also gets into history again I they’ll be these they said like I said they would need to convince a major amount of miners to do this and if the fork is made people would instantly stop building because One of the major utilities of ordinals is that is on the L1 of BDC through agent Pepe says it’s not a utility utility anymore if it makes BDC unusable only dollars Pepe says what was the long-term scaling solution anyway it only hastened the inevitable and what’s Had a nug wow nugget nugget eater says the lightning node meme nobody uses so just between these debate of these four people on Twitter you can already see this is the full collapse of what the bch community have been saying since time immemorial all you need is just one Guy in at the end saying who was not a bch person coming in to say hey maybe we should check out bch or something like that and that that’s it that’s the that’s the the winner all right here’s an outside prediction this is the long shot odds I actually like imaginaries Prediction better but um the Taproot wizards they actually go to war over this and in the ensuing uh chaos the hardening kicks in at the start of next uh of April and bch which has a 21 day lead uh on the harvarding cycle starts to Surge because the new Emission drops and while everything is in a complete mess over bigger blocks and cash tokens is kicking off and the Bitcoin cash podcast is going crazy and everybody starts going [ __ ] it’s the flipping and bch just starts Rising on the ratio and that just compounds into Its over guys like PCH is the is the fork where it’s all kicking off and then that won’t happen until tether until until tether approves it basically I don’t I don’t think well we some things Something’s Gonna Break there well I mean I mean or our actual utility floor breaks that point But I don’t expect that kind of stuff to happen either until utility floor uh starts to dominate which hasn’t happened yet uh in any of crypto right or or tether capitulates in some way I don’t I don’t know yeah all right so just very briefly then to Touch on uh so I mentioned there’s a huge segment of people that are neutral so they kind of think okay well valid transactions are valid fees will cause the [ __ ] coins to go away which it has at least in the short term so that makes sense they think the protocol shouldn’t Be changed and they have this saying Bitcoin is for enemies right the idea being that it should be you know people who disagree can kind of coexist and and get along with it so they do also recognize that the mining subsidy is an issue but they think okay well the fix Is going to be that lightning network will come in and save us which is a bit of a narrative but uh anyway that’s what they believe and the whole point being that these neutral Camp which might be quite large makes it very hard for the laser eyes to get a change in because They not only have to win out against the wizards they also have to win out against this big segment of people that doesn’t like ordinals but also doesn’t want to change uh kind of thing right yeah yeah I’ve seen this whole uh group of CTV guys right the ones who want to Introduce the the external data not external data but external uh uh covenants they want to enable covenants on BTC without external data but um I uh they they have absolutely no idea what they’re up against right they have no clue yeah well they’re gonna find out I guess If they if they try it uh seriously okay so we already sort of mentioned it but uh there’s b2c 2023 is is coming up uh so I actually just wanted to try and .
The BCH Podcast #80: BCH Guru & BRC-20 BTC Civil War Ft. EmergentReasons, CheapLightning & Im_Uname | CoinMarketBag
And BRC 20 BTC Civil War featuring emergent reasons cheap lighting and imaginary username today is Sunday the 14th of May 2023 I am your host Jeremy same as always jet is doing the producing and our guests today come from across the bch ecosystem they’ve all been frequent Attendees of the show before so…
